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  • #91
    Originally posted by dmd175
    Dominae did a good job standardizing the games, but I think the build queues should be as much as possible identical save for switching granary and settler. While settler first goes settler--> worker --> granary --> settler, granary first goes warrior--> granary --> settler---> settler.
    Not producing a Warrior right away is essential to the Settler-first strategy, where the idea is to get fresh water to all the bonus Food tiles ASAP. With all the Wheat around we know Constaniople can grow fast enough, the question is where to get the Shields from. My solution was to chop the Game Forest right away, although there is probably a more efficient method. Throwing a Warrior in there is 10 Shields that simply cannot be spared.

    It appears to me that the differences between the two tests (summed up as granary first has a larger economy quicker vs. settler first which has a slightly smaller economy but a higher rate of growth) are explained by the lack of workers and the lack of workers built, which is a function of the granary first queue. Instead, the granary first queue should be modified to build workers on par with settler first, so that we can extrapolate and isolate the effect not of order and intensity of build queues, but the effect of larger capital early/increased production later vs. more cities earlier.
    Nice analysis, although I would argue that it's not just about the Workers, but about the relative speeds at which Granary-first and Settler-first manage to "supersize" (irrigate) all the bonus Food resources. This, of course, is a function of Workers (which is in turn a function of Food!), but also a function of when and where the second city is placed.
    Last edited by Dominae; November 28, 2004, 19:15.
    And her eyes have all the seeming of a demon's that is dreaming...

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    • #92
      Originally posted by punkbass2000
      To begin with, I hope you're not offended by my (minor) criticism of your methodology.
      Nope.

      Beyond the fact that our tests will be far from conclusive given the many random factora in any civ game, I think it would have been slightly better to start from the ten-turn save to keep variable to a minimum (I think ideal for this comparison would be to continnue from the turn before the first settler would complete, and switching that to granary for the 'granary-first' scenario.)
      As I justed posted above in response to dmd, not producing a Warrior first is critical to the Settler-first strategy. It's not, however, so critical to the Granary-first strategy. You can build the Warrior right away and complete the Granary at size 2.8, or you build the Warrior after you're done the Granary, at size 2.6. Or you can just not build it at all and be ready to go with Settlers at size 2.6. But in this last case I believe you will find that Constantinople needs to grow a bit before becoming a 5 or 6-turn pump, meaning it needs to kill some time by building stuff that costs Shields but not Pop, i.e., Warriors or Curraghs.

      From a wider perspective, let me just say that it is not possible to control for all the variables in each game and remain efficient. The Settler-first game provides more Food early on, which allows the efficient production of more Workers. The Granary-first game is more Shield-intensive early on, and therefore is best applied by building some scouting-type units. To standardize their queues except for the timing of the Settler/Granary is not being fair to one or the other. In my tests I tried to be as efficient as possible with each strategy, given their inherent constraints. As Krill mentioned above, I could have been a bit more "fair" by building a Worker after the Granary in Granary-first, but I chose not to do this because I wanted to follow the sequence you posted.

      I have quibbles here, but they're not your fault. I should have made myself more clear in my original dissection (the part you quoted and based the queue on). As you have seen in my run, I would not actually build two settlers immediately after the granary, I was just saying for the sake of argument that I could build a granary and two settlers in the same time it would take to build two settlers.
      Yes, but as we can see there are factors which your analysis does not take into account and which undercut your conclusion. Instead of explaining this theoretically I decided to play the two alternatives out to demonstrate it.

      Also, I presumed Adrianople was to be founded at 699 (which I still prefer, BTW).
      In the long run, yes, that site may be preferable. But for a stronger opening it's clear to me that 69 is just better; it gets Food to all the necessary places faster. Had I gone with your city placement the results would have been much more skewed.

      I had thought that warriors, etc. wouldn't matter for the purposes of this study, as we're primarily counting food, but workers can be a real wildcard here.
      Exactly. And you need a lot of Food to produce those Workers and Settlers at the same time, and, while Granaries do provide Food, irrigation of bonus Food provides Food too. And you can only irrigate all those bonus Foods with Workers.

      Anyway, for a "fair" comparison between the two I think you'd need to produce two settlers ASAP in 'settler-first' which would be sub-optimal and thus unfair anyway.
      I'm not really seeing this. One strategy involves building a Settler ASAP, then playing the rest of the game as efficiently as possible. The other strategy involves building a Granary first instead (with whatever you want to build before it, if anything), then playing the rest of the game as efficiently as possible. Again, trying to make the games as similar as possible, save the Settler/Granary priority, is forcing one alternative into being suboptimal.
      Last edited by Dominae; November 29, 2004, 00:16.
      And her eyes have all the seeming of a demon's that is dreaming...

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      • #93
        By the way, thanks all for the discussion.
        And her eyes have all the seeming of a demon's that is dreaming...

        Comment


        • #94
          With such a food-rich start, I'd definately add more Workers ASAP, even if it means delaying a Settler. Otherwise the quick Settlers' power gets wasted by working unimproved tiles for a relatively long time. By "quick Settler" I mean the first one in Settler-first or the second and third one in Granary-first. Making 3 Settlers straight after the Granary is definately a to me, as long as they are not 4-turn Settlers.
          Seriously. Kung freaking fu.

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          • #95
            to 1500BC

            1750 BC (end of turn): Adrianople changed from hill to desert to get +2 trade (since only need 1 shield for granary).

            1725 BC: Adrianople to build settler. Existing settler to Const 332. Slave to build mine. Scouting S elite warrior destroys barb camp, no damage. Const requires lux to 10%; will grow and kick out next settler in 4 turns. Worker moves S of game to road, then mine, BG.

            1700 BC: Varna founded at Const 332, set to warrior. Scouting S warrior E to mtn - sees Arab borders far to his east, across a channel; Arab homeland likely on land connected to us, south of Constantinople. Workers sent to Const 77 and Adrianople 9.

            Just noticed that Myst was not sold to Hittites as reported, since Hittites still need Masonry, Mysticism. Ott has IW, no deal. Arabs are even. Sold mysticism as previously written for all 50 hittite gold.

            1675 BC: WTF?? Ottomans develop writing, but the Hittites now have IW, Writing, and 160 gold. The only thing I can figure is that the Hittites are in communication with another tribe and they made some nice trades (?). Both Hit/Ott want 140gold + >2gpt for either IW or writing. They can pound sand. We'll pound them later. Anyway, Hit would take 2gpt+123 for IW while Ott let it slide for 2gpt+118, so I bought it from Ott. I know our plan was to beeline for philosophy, and I'm well aware of the economics of "sunk costs", but 7 turns to writing vs. 50 to IW...so I bought IW. Only iron seen on entire revealed world is near Edrine(Ottoman) 477. No iron for our (easy) taking.

            All workers build road. Warrior NE. Some Const shields switched to ocean for extra trade.

            1650 BC: Mecca completes oracle. Barb appears at Const 77 next to our worker and at the site I plan for next city . Have to pull Const warrior and so Const will build warrior.

            Curragh out and S. We should probably build a city at the neck of the isthmus S of Const so ships can pass through it (either Const 222, 2222, 2221).

            Lux to 20% for Adrianople rioters.

            1625 BC: Warrior 77 of Const holds and Settler to 777. Scouting warrior N, notes two silks in Ottoman territory. Varna worker to mine.

            1600 BC: Smyrna founded 777 Const, building warrior for explore. Worker 9 Adrianople to irrigate. Worker by Smyrna to link up horse. Const makes warrior, actually moved to Adrianople for MP. Adrianople to work desert, forest, mine to get out settler quicker.

            Umm, Arabs and Ott now have poly. Nothing to trade for these. Arabs must have traded with Ott for IW and I did not have a chance to intervene as Arabs did not have poly last turn.

            1575 BC: Arabs now to build TOA. Adrianople dying of flood plain disease. Now lux to 10% and warrior back to Const. Varna warrior S for scout; Varna build worker. Warrior to SE hill, sees spice 122 Varna. Thus even though it will be a bad short term jungle city, Const 2222 gives us a "canal" and spice.

            Curragh sees iron in arabic territory to our SW.

            1550 BC: Slave 3 of Const to mine. Warrior further south in jungle. W Warrior reaches istanbul.

            1525: Warrior moving south in jungle, sees second spice. W warrior sees barb pillage hill road 3 of istanbul. There is also an arabic warrior 8 of istanbul.

            1500 BC: Writing learned; switch to phil. Const culture expands. Const builds settler.

            Gave game to Adrianople.Warriors continue to expand (NNW of const there is a fish, jungle warrior SW to attack barb, wins no damage, sees third spice). Curragh sees ivory in Arabic territory.

            Smyrna worker linked horse, now to sugar for road since Smyrna using that tile. Adrianople worker E on flood plain for road to Niceae.territory (baghdad).

            both ott/arab want 10gpt+105 for poly. tech even with hittites.

            What to do with our settler? Take him West to block Ottoman? Or South to block Arabia who have left some land between us? If we take the NE most spice jungle, we can eventually get the whale. If you look at the land between us and Arabia, it looks like they have not gotten as close to us as have the Ottomans. thus this settler will go west, and the next will go south.I've sent him toward the square N of the wheat near the ottomans, but next emperor feel free to change his course (he is in smyrna now).

            Also, feel free to change any build orders, esp smyrna,
            varna, caesarea, etc.

            1500 BC summary: Our relative position in power and score charts is improving (from 3rd to 2nd) (but mainly reflections of founding two new cities). We are #1 in pop (234k-->390k), (GNP 16M-->27M), Mfg (12-->16M), productivity (34-->55), and average income (2-->4). Approval 55-->60 and land area 4300-->6000.

            Unfortunately, compared to some of the test runs in the thread, it seems we are way, way behind (ie someone got philosophy at 1350, where we just started it at 1500 BC, and quickest we can get it is about 23 turns). Is the plan to still go at 50 turn pace? Does it make any sense given AI first to writing? I was not able to trade writing for anything since we were last to it. If someone could explain a bit more the rationale of the 50 turn writing I'd appreciate it.
            Attached Files

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            • #96
              sacred save
              Attached Files

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              • #97
                Apparently the Hitties we're going for Writing just as us, and got there first, then traded it with Ottomen. That's bad. Either they have a stellar starting location with loads of cash (bad luck), or we could have made it to Writing faster. I checked the save, 1990BC - 16 turns to Writing we might have it in 15 if going 100% science - no cash to do that. On discovering someone has Writing, I'd buy it and go for Philosophy at 100% science. Only problem is, we lost too much gold using the lux slider, so 100% won't happen. The delay of 7 turns can be costly. Then again, the AI might be slow to some other technologies, if they got to Philosophy first. Perhaps going for a different expensive tech would be better in that case.
                Seriously. Kung freaking fu.

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                • #98
                  They probably won't go for philosophy, in my experience. The added cost and the removal of being a requirement for the age really lowers its priority for the AI. The AI only sees MoM and one preq. gained by Phil., it doesn't "know" that it leads to Republic.
                  "I used to be a Scotialist, and spent a brief period as a Royalist, but now I'm PC"
                  -me, discussing my banking history.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Dominae
                    In the long run, yes, that site may be preferable. But for a stronger opening it's clear to me that 69 is just better; it gets Food to all the necessary places faster. Had I gone with your city placement the results would have been much more skewed.
                    I don't follow. How does 69 speed up your start, aside from being founded one turn earlier? It still requires one tile to be irrigated before the game.

                    I'm not really seeing this. One strategy involves building a Settler ASAP, then playing the rest of the game as efficiently as possible. The other strategy involves building a Granary first instead (with whatever you want to build before it, if anything), then playing the rest of the game as efficiently as possible. Again, trying to make the games as similar as possible, save the Settler/Granary priority, is forcing one alternative into being suboptimal.
                    Again, this was a simple error on my part. I misunderstood your comparison, I thought you were following my first ten moves, which is why I think our tests have failed.
                    "I used to be a Scotialist, and spent a brief period as a Royalist, but now I'm PC"
                    -me, discussing my banking history.

                    Comment


                    • Re: to 1500BC

                      Originally posted by dmd175
                      Just noticed that Myst was not sold to Hittites as reported, since Hittites still need Masonry, Mysticism. Ott has IW, no deal. Arabs are even. Sold mysticism as previously written for all 50 hittite gold.
                      Just curious, where was Myst. sold to the Hittites? I looked back a bit and only used ctrl-F, as the pages are so long, but could't find it.

                      1675 BC: WTF?? Ottomans develop writing, but the Hittites now have IW, Writing, and 160 gold. The only thing I can figure is that the Hittites are in communication with another tribe and they made some nice trades (?). Both Hit/Ott want 140gold + >2gpt for either IW or writing. They can pound sand. We'll pound them later. Anyway, Hit would take 2gpt+123 for IW while Ott let it slide for 2gpt+118, so I bought it from Ott. I know our plan was to beeline for philosophy, and I'm well aware of the economics of "sunk costs", but 7 turns to writing vs. 50 to IW...so I bought IW. Only iron seen on entire revealed world is near Edrine(Ottoman) 477. No iron for our (easy) taking.
                      It's reasonably likely they popped a tech from a hut.

                      All workers build road. Warrior NE. Some Const shields switched to ocean for extra trade.

                      1650 BC: Mecca completes oracle. Barb appears at Const 77 next to our worker and at the site I plan for next city . Have to pull Const warrior and so Const will build warrior.

                      Curragh out and S. We should probably build a city at the neck of the isthmus S of Const so ships can pass through it (either Const 222, 2222, 2221).

                      Lux to 20% for Adrianople rioters.

                      1625 BC: Warrior 77 of Const holds and Settler to 777. Scouting warrior N, notes two silks in Ottoman territory. Varna worker to mine.

                      1600 BC: Smyrna founded 777 Const, building warrior for explore. Worker 9 Adrianople to irrigate. Worker by Smyrna to link up horse. Const makes warrior, actually moved to Adrianople for MP. Adrianople to work desert, forest, mine to get out settler quicker.

                      Umm, Arabs and Ott now have poly. Nothing to trade for these. Arabs must have traded with Ott for IW and I did not have a chance to intervene as Arabs did not have poly last turn.

                      1575 BC: Arabs now to build TOA. Adrianople dying of flood plain disease. Now lux to 10% and warrior back to Const. Varna warrior S for scout; Varna build worker. Warrior to SE hill, sees spice 122 Varna. Thus even though it will be a bad short term jungle city, Const 2222 gives us a "canal" and spice.

                      Curragh sees iron in arabic territory to our SW.

                      1550 BC: Slave 3 of Const to mine. Warrior further south in jungle. W Warrior reaches istanbul.

                      1525: Warrior moving south in jungle, sees second spice. W warrior sees barb pillage hill road 3 of istanbul. There is also an arabic warrior 8 of istanbul.

                      1500 BC: Writing learned; switch to phil. Const culture expands. Const builds settler.

                      Gave game to Adrianople.Warriors continue to expand (NNW of const there is a fish, jungle warrior SW to attack barb, wins no damage, sees third spice). Curragh sees ivory in Arabic territory.

                      Smyrna worker linked horse, now to sugar for road since Smyrna using that tile. Adrianople worker E on flood plain for road to Niceae.territory (baghdad).

                      both ott/arab want 10gpt+105 for poly. tech even with hittites.

                      What to do with our settler? Take him West to block Ottoman? Or South to block Arabia who have left some land between us? If we take the NE most spice jungle, we can eventually get the whale. If you look at the land between us and Arabia, it looks like they have not gotten as close to us as have the Ottomans. thus this settler will go west, and the next will go south.I've sent him toward the square N of the wheat near the ottomans, but next emperor feel free to change his course (he is in smyrna now).

                      Also, feel free to change any build orders, esp smyrna,
                      varna, caesarea, etc.

                      1500 BC summary: Our relative position in power and score charts is improving (from 3rd to 2nd) (but mainly reflections of founding two new cities). We are #1 in pop (234k-->390k), (GNP 16M-->27M), Mfg (12-->16M), productivity (34-->55), and average income (2-->4). Approval 55-->60 and land area 4300-->6000.

                      Unfortunately, compared to some of the test runs in the thread, it seems we are way, way behind (ie someone got philosophy at 1350, where we just started it at 1500 BC, and quickest we can get it is about 23 turns). Is the plan to still go at 50 turn pace? Does it make any sense given AI first to writing? I was not able to trade writing for anything since we were last to it. If someone could explain a bit more the rationale of the 50 turn writing I'd appreciate it.
                      Well, no, I wouldn't go 50-turn for Phil. at this point. The rationale of 50-turn Writing centers around a couple things. For one thing, when we first started on WRiting, even at max it would have take ~40 turns, which isn't a huge gain, and this would be further amplified if we had started on it right away rather than getting Pottery first. Also, remember this is not "optimal" for Monarch, as "optimal" Monarch play would be to do your own research, especially given all the food at our disposal, or empire will f\grow fast enough to take the tech lead anyway (as you saw occurred rather quickly in my granary-first trial). However, one cannot always depend on the luxuries of food, as it may not be there. If you play random starts and don't restart, often your first few cities can only produce 2fpt for a long time. Another reason is that I simply don't want to be the tech leader so quickly, we're supposed to be climbing out of a hole and learning to deal with not being number one. Perhaps I should have ran an Emperor game with Monarch and below players, as discussion etc. probably makes the game go a little too well. IMO, if one is playing at the 'appropriate' level for their skill, things should be turning around for the human player around the end of the MA at the earliest. Beyond that, I was hoping to be able to get Writing first with plenty of gold (also a reason to go no-research) while lacking IW, Poly. and possibly other techs that the AI would have to show how best to trade when has the advantage of having monopoly on a tech. This is a tried and true strategy, and as well as Writing, Printing Press is often a great tech to research in the MA and is often one of the key turnarounds that brings about the human's domination in the beginning of the IA. I'll try to find my AU 601 DAR, as in it I applied this strategy to about as great an advantage as I ever do. I saw that only Egypt had PP, and they also had Edu. and Chiv. and probably Inv. (at least), while I had only he first tier in the MA + Theo. A couple other civs had Edu., most civs had Inv. and they pretty well all had Chiv. I researched PP quickly and traded it for Edu., Edu. for Inv. and Inv. for Chiv. + various amounts of gold and probably sold for just gold to a bunch of civs, IIRC. Five techs for the price of one is not a bad deal and gave me tech parity (or superiority) with all but Egypt.
                      "I used to be a Scotialist, and spent a brief period as a Royalist, but now I'm PC"
                      -me, discussing my banking history.

                      Comment


                      • Here's the DAR and here's a quote

                        I checked around after getting theo. + eng. from the Carths, and was able to get inv. but no other techs. I noted that only the Egyptians had PP, while 2-3 civs had edu., most had gunpowder and everyone had chivalry, so I researched PP as fast as possible without a deficit (6-7 turns), then traded it around for the three above techs + a bit of gold. I then was able to see that nearly everyone has chem., while the Egyptians have that, astro. and MT, so I'm now researching Banking with an ETA of 6 turns.
                        So yeah, I was a little off in my memory, but the point is the same, and I used Banking in this case in a similar way as well.
                        "I used to be a Scotialist, and spent a brief period as a Royalist, but now I'm PC"
                        -me, discussing my banking history.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Re: to 1500BC

                          Originally posted by punkbass2000
                          Just curious, where was Myst. sold to the Hittites? I looked back a bit and only used ctrl-F, as the pages are so long, but could't find it.
                          I thought I sold it to the Hitties. Apparently must have exited the trade window without completing the deal. Sorry.
                          Seriously. Kung freaking fu.

                          Comment


                          • Sorry, gotta go to work and won't be back for ~11 hours, here's 5 turns, the save and notes.

                            1500BC Switch Adrianople from forest to roaded incense desert for extra trade.
                            Constantinople switched to worker.
                            Science set to 100.
                            Phil in twenty turns (Go big or go home )

                            1475BC Smyrna completes warrior, set to worker.
                            New Warrior (Grog henceforth) goes to Constantinople.
                            Warrior in Const. (Biggus Dickus henceforth) to Adrian.
                            Settler W towards dmd's intended location.
                            Worker (henceforth Worker1) beside Smyrna set to road.
                            Worker2 N of Varna into jungle S of slave.
                            Worker3 E of Adrian. road.
                            Northern Warrior (Joe) W.
                            Elite Warrior (Special Forces) was transported to 366 from Istanbul and now goes N
                            Southern WArrior (Saffron) goes S, discovers Hittite warrior.
                            Curragh (Magellan) 121. Medina discovered.
                            Const. + Adrian MM'ed for one turn growth in Const.

                            1450BC Const. grows and completes Worker4, set to Settler in six turns and growth in two.
                            Adrian completes Settler and switches to worker in 5 and growth in 3.
                            Worker4 NW.
                            Varna completes Worker5, helps slave cut mining to 3 turns from 9. arna set to barracks.
                            GRog to Ceasaraea.
                            Biggus Dickus to Const.
                            Settler to 126 of Adrian (scout in the way of 32).
                            Joe S.
                            Western Settler W.
                            Saffron W.
                            Special Forces E.
                            Magellan 222.

                            1425BC Grog fortifies.
                            Slave NE of Ceas. (Otto) 99. Biggus Dickus fortifies.
                            Worker 4 begins Irrigation.
                            Worker2 begins road.
                            Joe W.
                            Western Settler W.
                            Special Forces E.
                            Saffron S.
                            Settler founds Heraclea 32 from Adrian, set to worker/growth 10.
                            Magellan 322, spots Najran and a hut on the isle in the SW.
                            Special Forces E.
                            Grog to Const.
                            Otto cuts Irrigation to two turns.
                            Worker1 to forest.
                            Joe S.
                            W Settler W to city site.
                            Saffron SW.
                            Worker3 NE.
                            Magellan 228.

                            1400BC Ceas. completes Settler, set to worker.
                            Special Forces to Const.
                            Trebizond founded, set to worker in 10, growth in seven
                            Joe S.
                            Worker3 starts road.
                            Magellan 869.
                            Ceas Settler W.
                            Worker1 chops.
                            GRog to Adrian.
                            Slave W or Varna (Hitt) and Worker5 s to jungle for fun and games.
                            Saffron S.
                            "I used to be a Scotialist, and spent a brief period as a Royalist, but now I'm PC"
                            -me, discussing my banking history.

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                            • Sorry, the save:
                              Attached Files
                              "I used to be a Scotialist, and spent a brief period as a Royalist, but now I'm PC"
                              -me, discussing my banking history.

                              Comment


                              • Screen
                                Attached Files
                                "I used to be a Scotialist, and spent a brief period as a Royalist, but now I'm PC"
                                -me, discussing my banking history.

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