AU mod: The Statue of Zeus

[vmxa1]

Making it only allow AC, I like that Ducki. Nothing else changes, you still need Ivory, but it does not give units.

[ducki]

Well, if the editor can't give access to a unit, could it give a free, predetermined, "dummy" tech that enables building of ACav?

I realize it's getting convoluted now, and the point of it being a small wonder was it was no longer exclusive or chance-based - it was strategic(meaning remove the resource requirement) in the decision of how to spend all those shields.

Anyway, I guess adding a dummy tech just to be a gateway to ACav would invalidate the whole "no downloads" rule, eh?

Bummer, I thought I was on to something there.

[Kuciwalker]

Well, if the editor can't give access to a unit, could it give a free, predetermined, "dummy" tech that enables building of ACav?

No.

[Theseus]

I have not yet had ivory... What is this strange and wondrous thing you all the Statue of Zeus?

And seeing as I've played epic games as Maya and Scandy... who the heck is this guy Zeus? Did he write the epic poem in the PTWDG thread?



Leave it alone for the moment.

[MrWhereItsAt]

Originally posted by Theseus
I have not yet had ivory... What is this strange and wondrous thing you all the Statue of Zeus?

And seeing as I've played epic games as Maya and Scandy... who the heck is this guy Zeus? Did he write the epic poem in the PTWDG thread?



Leave it alone for the moment.

/me would agree with this over a hefty change, even if it meant he had to voluntarily withhold from building the SoZ

And BTW, I'm up to 4 games without at least one of Horses or Iron in my starting sphere of influence. The resource scarcity is a big change. Can I have some of your maps where you start with both of these, Dom?

[Blitzer]

Obviously the SOZ is unbelievably powerful. In my first game of C3C I was overrun by Ancient Cavalry, which opened my eyes to their power. My second and third games, I built the wonder and basicly won the game on it's back. In one game I started with Ivory in my starting city and opened like this:

Warrior
Warrior
Settler
Barracks
Spearman
SOZ

My second city became basicly my first city, and my capital built the SOZ. I overran the Greeks and Romans on my continent like they weren't even around. I never built another military unit the whole game except spearmen for cities, and won the game by domination in the early 900's AD.

The second game, I had to work a little harder for ivory, but again I managed to take the continent with almost no resistance well before 0AD. Spaeship win this time. This wonder makes an OOC conquest win not only possible, but quite probable on the mid-level settings.

I like the concept of these wonders... they play right into my hands as a builder. Free army, and culture from a wonder? Sounds like a plan. The only way I see this wonder not completely breaking the game is to have seven more equally powerful wonders with a luxury requirement. That way all the luxuries would be valuable and not just ivory. Perhaps some modder could either invent some new wonders of comparable power, or give some of the best wonders (Hoover/Pyramids, etc) luxury requirements. Unfortunately as it stands, even the power of the Pyramids is dwarfed by the hordes of knights rampaging around the ancient era.

Cheers.

Blitzer

[bongo]

I'm looking forward to hear any MP experience with this wonder. Maybe the best solution is to scrap the entire wonder?

[vmxa1]

They just chew up all ancient units with 5 or 6 HP. I did not run it in any calculators, but they are brutal to spears and archers. They do a number on any unforted swords as well.

[geniemalin]

I would vote to have it removed too ... it fits nicely into the Mesopotamia scenario (interestingly giving Barracks rather than A/Cav though) but I think it should never have made it into the 'main' game.

Knights Templar seems pretty balanced OTOH.

[Blitzer]

Well it's confirmed at least... OOC conquest wins are not only possible, but achievable on the first try. Conquered the world with a small pangea, one city. Had to cheat a bit becuse my OOC wasn't on the shore and my Pangea was actually 2 continents, but you get the idea. SOZ is an outrageously overpowered wonder, and whoever the Firaxis employee responsible for playtesting is, he should probably be fired.

[ducki]

Originally posted by vmxa1
They just chew up all ancient units with 5 or 6 HP. I did not run it in any calculators, but they are brutal to spears and archers. They do a number on any unforted swords as well.

If you're willing to accept high casualties, you can also use them as cannon fodder on Pike-defended cities, and even Musket-defended cities, though you're looking at greater than 50% casualties. And at that point, you're in a use 'em or lose 'em situation anyway.

I am still not convinced it's overpowered. It's a niche wonder, just like the Iron Works. Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't. Maybe it should be a SW, then, and toned down a little bit.

Maybe I just don't see it as overpowered because I don't build it as early as some of you guys seem to be doing. By the time I have a dozen or two of these guys, I'm building knights already. I just don't see how you can get a large enough attack force early enough to make this as powerful as it seems, unless you beeline for it, in which case, we're balancing for a very specific, power-gamer technique.

I don't know. It just seems like a nice _little_ boost(or a second chance if lacking horses) in the games where I'm able to build it - not a gamebreaker.

[vmxa1]

If I have ivory, then I semi beeline. I will beeline for Write-Phil and then do Math. If I am unable to get contact for a long time with the other contient, I will probably have a lot of time for AC to be generated. I will make Metal the last tech before I bump to the next age.

The beauty of AC is they are great ancient age fighters and then they can be used as free shields later. Once Muskets are on the scene with knights and soon calv, I will start to retire them as free boost to builds. I get the shields and save the upkeep.

So I will get back my 200 shields for the wonder, have use of the troops and keep getting culture, how good is that?

[Kuciwalker]

On a Small map, they are a builder's dream. In my latest game as the Babylonians, I built a total of TWO spearmen. The rest of my army was AC's. This lasted until I got Knight's Templar. I didn't start actually building units until Nationalism

I even fought a small war with the Persians during the Ancient Era. We were seperated by the Byzantines though, so it was easy to just pick off the Immortals. It probably helped too that Greece was my only other neighbor.

[vmxa1]

skywalker you have to be careful not to get into the trap of not making horse type units and cats. You can find yourself going into the industrial age and having no calvs and no cannons.

You then have very little in the way of good attackers. The AC's will not fare well against musket/rifles. They are only ok when attacked by MI.

[EnduringBlue]

Dominae, I wanted to get your take on this:

I would like to suggest a different approach I haven't seen in the thread. Make ivory a strategic resource, and the game renders a ratio of ivory per civ that evens out the chances of getting it.

Since ivory has been so rare on my C3C maps, I don't think that changing its status would have an impact on normal strategy in regards to net access to luxury resources.

This might seem major, but I think this idea would be less drastic than the drift of the discussion so far, to wit, chucking out the wonder entirely. Tossing out wonders just feels as MODish as adding new ones (an emotional reaction, I admit)

alternative suggestion: making it a small wonder and changing the unit or strength of the unit it produces. that way it could be "A" military-producing wonder without being "THE"! military-unit-producing wonder.