AU mod: The Statue of Zeus

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by lockstep
But the first time an AI civ had the only source of ivory near its capital, built the SoZ and used Ancient Cavalry to sneak-attack the only neighboring civ (me), I decided that this was not my idea of fun.

Would that experience have been any less unpleasant if, as a result of eliminating the ivory requirement, a neighbor without ivory built the SoZ and sneak-attacked you? In my view, such unpleasant experiences have a whole lot to do with the overpowered nature of the wonder and very little to do with the ivory requirement.


Unless eliminating the ivory requirement significantly increases the percentage of games in which you build the SoZ yourself, I don't see how it would reduce your risk of being hit like that. And if the change would result in such an increase, I'm not thrilled at the impact on the balance between warmongering and peaceful strategies for the early game.

Nathan

[lockstep]

Re: Re: Proposal under consideration

Originally posted by alexman
I marked the proposal under consideration, but I'm not sure we should vote on all these changes at once. For example, what if someone agrees that the Wonder needs weakening, likes all the above changes, but thinks that making all of them would weaken it too much?

I see ... but IMO, these changes deal in fact with two different SoZ issues. Change no. 1 adresses the 'luck of the draw' problem (assuming there is one), while changes no. 2-5 try to tackle the 'costs vs. benefits' of this wonder. So for proposal no. 1 a simple yes/no vote is perfectly adequate IMO.

Perhaps we can vote in two stages. First we vote on whether the above changes would be independently acceptable (without considering them in relation to each other), and then (after some discussion) we can vote yes/no on a specific combination of changes.

What about this way: Each panel member (besides adressing the ivory issue)

1. votes upon how many of the suggested changes no. 2-5 seem appropriate to weaken the SoZ (i.e. none/one/two/three/all of them) - the mean value is considered as voting result;
2. gives a ranking of these four changes - the combined ranking is used to determine which changes are actually implemented, subject to the voting result of a).

Example vote ('lockstep' ):

• Remove the ivory requirement;
• Implement two of the suggested 'cost/benefit'-changes;
• (Best) remove AC hp bonus - increase SoZ shield cost - reduce AC spawn frequency - move SoZ to Construction (worst).

[lockstep]

Originally posted by nbarclay
Would that experience have been any less unpleasant if, as a result of eliminating the ivory requirement, a neighbor without ivory built the SoZ and sneak-attacked you?

Much less unpleasant because that neighbor would have beaten me to the SoZ.

[lockstep]

Just to be clear: My suggestion for an alternative voting procedure should be able to deal with the issue alexman brought up, but I still think that 'keep it simple and stupid' is also a valid voting procedure.

(1: YES - 2: NO - 3: YES - 4: NO - 5: YES)

[lockstep]

Re: Re: Proposal under consideration

Originally posted by alexman
I'm not sure we should vote on all these changes at once. For example, what if someone agrees that the Wonder needs weakening, likes all the above changes, but thinks that making all of them would weaken it too much?

On second thought - or rather on third thought - I'd say that this 'someone' should decide which of the changes he/she likes the most and should vote only for these.

Let's keep it simple and stupid.

[ZargonX]

Yaaaargh... the holidays have caused me to fall behind in my AU duties Done a quick scan of the multiple suggestions at hand, and I think I have to agree with lockstep's suggestion about the selection process:

Let's keep it simple and stupid.

[pauli]

so far, i have yet to spawn with ivory completely out of reach - though once i was simply lucky that my scout found it in time for me to get a settler over the 30 or so square distance in time. mongols almost got BOTH ivory squares!

took me considerably longer to get access to horses - had to trade for them, which required the artificial idiot to remember to build roads between his capitol and the border towns come to think of it, i didn't have any mounted units other than ancient cavalry and real cavalry.

could just make it a small wonder with no req (or add another seven statues), but that's not quite au-ish

[lockstep]

This is from a thread in the Conquests forum (http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...hreadid=105676):

Originally posted by Dominae
I would fix the State of Zeus by: 1) removing the Ivory requirement, 2) increasing the Shield cost to 300, and 3) taking away the +1 HP to Ancient Cavalry. Then we would have a perfectly balanced yet still interesting Wonder.

Dominae, as you posted this after you (prematurely) voted in the AU forum, I'm assuming for now that you'd like to change your vote regarding proposal no. 3 (SoZ's shield cost) to YES. Naturally, I'd like you to express yourself in this thread.

To the other panel members: The vote (a simple yes/no for proposals no. 1-5) will start on Sunday, Jan. 11th. Voting time period will be 48 hours, just in case more people are still on holiday.

[lockstep]

BTW, I like Dominae's latest suggestion because it brings the SoZ in line with Knights Templar: A wonder that does not need any resource, costs 300 shields, spawns a unit every 5 turns, and this unit has no hitpoint bonus.

[Dominae]

The voting system for this issue is too convoluted.

The suggestion I made in the other forum is a solution I would like to see implemented as a whole. Voting for bits and pieces of it individually will probably lead to a very odd solution, one that no one will be happy with.

Voting should be a simple "Yes/No, this change should be implemented". The weeding out of alternatives is what debating is for.


Dominae

[Stuie]

I'm inclined to agree with Dominae. There should be a single solution identified and voted on. If it fails, we try again.

The a la carte method might very well lead to something that nobody likes.

[lockstep]

Re: Proposal under consideration

Hmm ... nbarclays opinion would suggest to keep at least the ivory issue separate from everything else ... but let's see this through. We could either hold a single vote:

• Yes/No: Remove the Statue of Zeus' ivory requirement AND increase SoZ's shield cost from 200 to 300 AND remove Ancient Cavalry's +1 hitpoint bonus.

Or we could vote on two proposals, which may be combined:

1. Yes/No: Remove the Statue of Zeus' ivory requirement,
2. Yes/No: Increase SoZ's shield cost from 200 to 300 AND remove Ancient Cavalry's +1 hitpoint bonus.

I'm fine with either solution. Dominae and Stuie, you obviously prefer the single vote. So, if no other panel member has objections (and if, please speak out), let's hold a single vote.

[alexman]

How about something like this:

1. Yes/No: Remove the Statue of Zeus' ivory requirement.
2. Yes/No: If item 1) results in a No, increase SoZ's shield cost from 200 to 300 AND remove Ancient Cavalry's +1 hitpoint bonus.
3. Yes/No: If item 1) results in a Yes, increase SoZ's shield cost from 200 to 300 AND remove Ancient Cavalry's +1 hitpoint bonus.

By the way, my prefered solution would be to make Ancient Cavalry a 2/2/2 unit, with no other changes to the ToZ.

[Arrian]

2.2.2... it could finally fill that slot for unit stats (we've got 2.1.2 and 1.2.2, but no 2.2.2) and that would definitely reduce the power of the wonder.

I like it.

-Arrian, AU lurker

[Dominae]

2.2.2... it could finally fill that slot for unit stats (we've got 2.1.2 and 1.2.2, but no 2.2.2)

Played the Hittites recently, Arrian?

Personally it's not the power of the Wonder that bothers me, it's the fact that it grants this power on a very random basis. Put another way, the Statue of Zeus is not overly powerful if every civ has access to it (are the Pyramids too powerful? Sun Tzu's?).

Therefore, IMO the proopsed change of making Ancient Cavs 2/2/2 misses the point. My own solution includes increasing the Shield cost in order to make it more like the other Ancient era Wonders, and removing the +1 HP to make Cavs more like Ancient era units. But these are afterthoughts to taking away the Ivory requirement.


Dominae