AU mod: The Statue of Zeus

[ZargonX]

BEST

D)
C)
E)
A)
B)
F)

WORST

[Theseus]

ACDBEF

[Stuie]

D) Increase cost to 300, remove bonus HP.
C) Increase cost to 300, unit interval to 8 turns.
A) No change
E) Reduce attack factor to 2.
B) Require Ivory within city radius.
F) Move to Construction

[pvzh]

I played with AU SoZ-AC (3/2/2 no HP bonus and 300 shields). Game (emperor, Pangea, standard size, everything on average, my land mostly flood plains/desert/plains, so low shield count).

I must say I am not impressed at all with this wonder. It is the only wonder I was able to get (Thanks to ivory requirement). By the time of AI knights rolling around I had 8 AC produced. AI knights put a stop to any sensible use of 3/2/2 unit (beside some rear guard mobile force).

3/2/2 +1 HP makes this unit slightly worser than a knight on combat. (I compared odds using Civ calculator agains vet and reg spears fortified on grass or hill). So, it is safe to assume a cost of 70 shield for unit. Would I have these 300 shield would be a right price.

However, with 3/2/2 no HP bonus it is galic swordsman that worth 40! It means that by the time of knights I got only my invested shields back, but with a great delay. That is no good at all.

I think, it is good to leave AC with no HP bonus, but it require the old cost of 200 shields, and probably, make them upgradable to Knights. This would require to lower they cost in the editor to 40 (they have the same stats as gallic swordsmen), so an upgrade will cost 90 without Leo.

[alexman]

Thanks for the feedback, but keep in mind that it's a bad idea to generalize from just one game.

A Pangaea map has a faster tech rate than other types, so you get fewer AC before Knights.

Also, unless you were the Celts, there is no 3-2-2 Ancient unit, so you don't usually have the alternative to build 3-2-2 units instead of the ToZ.

However, we'll continue to monitor the SoZ in AU games to see if the change we made needs to be revised.

[sabrewolf]

for MP, the ancient cavalry stats are being reduced by 1 defensive point. so 3|1|2... basicly a +1HP mounted warrior instead of a +1HP gallic swordsman.

i don't think this is a better solution for the AU mod, but we could keep it in mind...

[pvzh]

I did not pretended for complete analysis. I just put it because I wanted to show that AU SoZ/AC in fact expire at the time of AI chivalry not at the time of metalurgy like stock AC. This fact was not thought out when the change was made.

[nbarclay]

Keep in mind that in this game, the need to launch a naval invasion of Japan before ivory became available limited how early the Statue of Zeus could be built (especially without a prebuild). Also, I strongly disagree with the idea that Ancient Cavalry lose their value when enemies start to get pikemen and knights. They can deal with enemy offensive slow-movers, and can finish off more powerful enemies that have been injured through bombardment or in earlier fights. Even in the cavalry era, Ancient Cavalry can accompany the cavalry and help deal with enemy counterattacks so the cavalry can focus more on pushing ahead to conquer additional territory. Only when enemies upgrade their MedInfs and longbowmen to guerillas do Ancient Cavalry fully lose their relevance as anything more than MPs.

We deliberately intended that there be some question of whether a civ is better off building the SoZ in order to get more return on its shields in the long run or building units instead to get a strong punch earlier. So if it is not clear that building the SoZ is better in all situations, I would say that our changes are doing what they were supposed to.

[MrWhereItsAt]

Thanks for the thoughts and analysis, pvzh. It is appreciated.

However in the case of that game it does sound like you had a situation where AC would not have made much of a difference whatever their stats (within reason). In most of my games where I have built the SoZ it has been my only source of Horses for a long time, and many of those around me have not had Horses either, tipping the balance significantly. It would be a game with a situation like this that would be best for testing purposes - perhaps a custom map with only one or two civs around with Horses?

[nbarclay]

Pvzh and Theseus have brought up something that I consider a good idea. I'm going to go ahead and officially put it under consideration, and we'll probably have an emergency vote to accept it on a provisional basis for the upcoming game (at least if no one strongly opposes the idea).

The problem: AIs don't seem to make a special effort to build barracks in cities where the Statue of Zeus or the Knights Templar is located. As a result, they sometimes don't get as much advantage out of the wonders as human players do (since we do recognize the special importance of barracks in those cities).

Proposed solution (now under consideration): Add the "Veteran ground units" flag to the Knights Templar and Statue of Zeus.

[Theseus]

and thanks to pvzh for bringing it up.

[nbarclay]

Okay, let's go ahead and vote on this so we can get it in the game if it passes. Since we aren't allowing our normal one-week lead time between when changes are placed under consideration and when we vote, we'll go ahead and go with people's initial votes for the upcoming game, but panelists can change their votes any time up to eight days from the time of this post if new thoughts cause them to change their minds. The change will not be considered a permanent part of the Mod until that time has elapsed. That way we can decide for the upcoming game quickly whiile still leaving the normal time for consideration before the change becomes permanent.

Yes/No: Add the "Veteran ground units" flag to the Statue of Zeus and the Knights Templar.

[nbarclay]

I vote yes.

[bongo]

Not being a panelist or whatever, I still think this is a good idea.

[Theseus]

Yes