AU mod: Balancing the Governments

[Dominae]

How I would like to see Feudalism:

1. Unit maintenance reduced to 1gpt.
2. War Weariness set to 'None'. Monarchy's War Weariness set to 'Low'.

Then I believe the following descriptions of the governments apply:

Despotism: Good for extensive warfare in the Ancient era.
Republic: Good for peace and prosperity, not warfare.
Monarchy: Good alternative to Republic when some warfare is necessary.
Feudalism: Good for extensive warfare in the Medieval era.

Does that sound good to you guys?


Dominae

[Dominae]

Incidentally, I think Republic's free unit maintenance should be 1/2/3, and similarly for Democracy. This just gives yet another sorely-needed reason to switch to Democracy.

Something I've been toying with is reducing Republic's free maintenance to 0/1/2. This is somewhat drastic, but would really put Republic into the place we want it to be, namely, a peaceful government that is not better than Democracy.

It would be cool if we could get Democracy and Republic to both be valid choices depending on the situation, but let's face it: Civ3 is not complex enough for that. Therefore, in order to provide an incentive for non-Religious civs to switch to Democracy, Republic must clearly be the lesser of the two.

I would like to hear what you guys/gals think of this new proposal.


Dominae

[Theseus]

I like your suggestions, Dominae.

I would still like to see government balance that would encourage, nay, require two switches.

/me ducks.

[Dominae]

You're ducking a high-five, Theseus, because that's precisely what I would like to see, too.

[Theseus]

/me is waiting for Catt.

[Stuie]

Originally posted by Theseus
I like your suggestions, Dominae.

I would still like to see government balance that would encourage, nay, require two switches.

* Theseus ducks.

I completely agree with both comments - I like Dominae's proposal, and you need not duck.

[alexman]

Originally posted by Dominae
How I would like to see Feudalism:
1. Unit maintenance reduced to 1gpt.
2. War Weariness set to 'None'. Monarchy's War Weariness set to 'Low'.

I don't think it's a good idea to remove war weariness from Feudalism. With 5 free units per town and no war weariness, why would you ever choose another warmongering government? Just conquer and pop-rush everything outside your core to towns. Also, Monarchy loses much of its appeal compared to the Republic, if you give it the same war weariness as the Republic. I think these two governments are balanced in the Ancient Age now.

Incidentally, I think Republic's free unit maintenance should be 1/2/3, and similarly for Democracy. This just gives yet another sorely-needed reason to switch to Democracy.

We have already voted on a 1/2/2 unit support for Democracy. Did you forget, or are you proposing we have another vote to increase metro support by 1 for Republic and Democracy?

Something I've been toying with is reducing Republic's free maintenance to 0/1/2. This is somewhat drastic, but would really put Republic into the place we want it to be, namely, a peaceful government that is not better than Democracy.

Won't this kill the Republic in the Ancient Age, just from worker support alone? The AI would suffer big time. I think it's better to leave the Republic alone in the ancient age.

It would be cool if we could get Democracy and Republic to both be valid choices depending on the situation, but let's face it: Civ3 is not complex enough for that.

Actualy, it can be done. Nor Me proposed a flat empire-wide unit support for the Republic, which would make it better than Democracy for small peaceful empires, but worse for large empires. But we already have debated this, and we decided that the government map dependecy was not desirable. I still like it though.

Therefore, in order to provide an incentive for non-Religious civs to switch to Democracy, Republic must clearly be the lesser of the two.

This is already the case, with identical unit support and double Republic unit maintenance. So we're in business!

[ducki]

I also don't think that WW should disappear from Feudalism - I think you could do that for Fascism, but not Feudalism.

Maybe Feudalism could get its own version of the SPHQ but that reduces WW? Call it a Castle or Jousting Field or somesuch? That's pretty extreme, though.

I like - no, love - the idea of making the Ancient governments, well, Ancient, and the Modern ones Modern. If you're in Rep or Mon or even Feudalism and prepping a space launch, I think you should be at a distinct disadvantage to someone in Democracy or even Fascism/Communism.

Actually, from a historical/logical perspective, I feel Feudalism (a smaller, clan-based govt) should come before Monarchy and/or Republic, but that's also too extreme for the mod, IMO.

What was my point? Oh yeah, Feudalism needs WW but should definitely have an edge or a hook making it superior to Rep and Mon in some ways that it will be chosen.
Demo, Comm, Fascism all need to be superior to the Ancient gov choices(including Feudal in Ancient here).

I think we could make all of them more attractive if we could cap the player's anarchy similarly to how the AI is capped at higher difficulty levels. Not capped as much as the AI, but capped so that the math doesn't support maintaining an inferior government.

I'd like to see at least 2-3 switches, also. Once for Rep/Mon/Feud and one for Dem/Comm/Fas. At least. For non-Religious civs. Without a cap, I don't think anything will make that an attractive option. Unless we seriously buff the moderns and seriously nerf the ancients.

[Catt]

Originally posted by Theseus
* Theseus is waiting for Catt.

I agree that more needs to be done to promote government diversity. And I think that Firaxis recognized this and tried to something with the changes to Republic -- I just think they didn't solve the problem (and may have exacerbated it).

I have no opinion on Feudalism as I haven't used it, will be likely to use it in only rare circumstances, and haven't seen an AI use it yet. I will, however, be interested to see how the regular AU Mod players think the balance between Republic and Democracy has moved with the changes, though

Catt

[Nor Me]

If Communism is as good as I think it might be in the beta patches, then there are already plenty of situations when you'd have 2 switches.

In fact it's so good, it's likely not to stay that way.

The corruption reducing advantages of Democracy are going to be smaller as well, not that they were significant to begin with.

Until Firaxis decide what the corruption model is going to be, we're going to have to be prepared to radically alter any late game solutions. That's why we've been concentrating on early changes.

[Catt]

Originally posted by Nor Me
If Communism is as good as I think it might be in the beta patches, then there are already plenty of situations when you'd have 2 switches.

In fact it's so good, it's likely not to stay that way.

I clicked on this thread to post more or less the same thing (and to see you'd already done so!). The current changes to Communism (on paper - haven't played a game with it yet), may alter the "only one government switch" phenomenon more drastically than anything we're discussing here.

Catt

[alexman]

As long as the new Communism is not better than Republic/Democracy under any circumstances (except perhaps enormous empires, which means that the game is already won), and as long as Fascism is better than Communism for small empires, I think we're in business!

The only problem is the AI choosing the wrong wartime government for its empire size...

Does anyone have any real C3C examples of typical industrial-age empires, so we can compare the effectiveness of the various governments?

[lockstep]

Just adding my opinion ...

'No' to a war weariness switch between Feudalism and Monarchy, because it would make Monarchy rather unattractive.

'Defer' to a 0/1/2 unit support for Republic - this may actually be a good idea, but IMO we should gain some experience with the (already agreed upon) change from 1/3/4 under stock rules to 1/2/2 in the AU mod.

[ducki]

Originally posted by alexman
Does anyone have any real C3C examples of typical industrial-age empires, so we can compare the effectiveness of the various governments?

I don't have that, but I do have a Feudal Japan that's about to switch to Republic - lots of size 6 and under towns rather tightly spaced with 2 to 4 size 7+cities- that might be a good comparison tool for Feudalism. (Although I do have about 6 luxuries due to trades and ownership,not sure if this helps or hurts.)

I'm about to start a war with the SoZ-owning(no-Ivory, cascaded into it), no-Iron-having Aztecs with Samurai, which might also be a good AC test-bed. Even better if I can dig up a pre-upgrade-to-Samurai save so we can see how AC do against a horse+sword+spear human as well as Pikes and Samurai. They've had SoZ since I build the Pyramids and I've carefully kept them at peace the whole time in order to maximize the number of ACs they have.

Do we want/need actual in-game, non-editor-created situations for AC and/or Feudalism? If so, I'll try to post that tonight.


Edit: We could also use this to take a look at Feudal WW.

[lockstep]

Sounds like a good test game for Feudalism AND Ancient Cavalry.