AU mod: Balancing the Governments

[vmxa1]

No rules other than the ones the site uses. I admint I have not used Feudal and only took a cursory look at it, but I could not find any compelling reason to use it.

So what do you see as the value. IOW I would like to hear why I am missing a good bet and when I should be advised to use Feudalism.

[ducki]

IMO, Feudalism is good when you have lots of Towns - lots and lots - and don't plan on building aqueducts any time soon, but want to build up a big invasion force. At least, that's my opinion, though I've rarely used it outside of planned "I wonder what Feudalism is like" games.

I would imagine skipping over un-required techs could be a big boost as well, both in terms of time and money, moreso with the AU Mod and optional Philo.

[Dominae]

I've been tinkering with Feudalism in my current pet project (someday I'll post all the details, but for now it's a secret!).

As Nisku alludes to, Feudalism's real weakness is the War Weariness. Let's face it: if you're going to build enough units to make Feudalism worthwhile, you're going to want to be at war for a large portion of the Medieval era. It makes no economic sense to build up zounds of units then unleash them all in one big go, as Republic is still better for that.

Granted, there are times when Feudalism does not suck. But "not sucking" is rarely worth a government switch for a non-Religious civ. Most of the time, you have to be pretty confused in your game plan to choose Feudalism over Monarchy and Republic. Want to wage war? You'll have to get out of Feudalism at some point. Want to build a strong economy? You're better off with a Commerce bonus than free unit support.

What's left that's good about Feudalism? Poprushing, although synergistic with Feuadlism's other traits, is nonetheless not an efficient way to build things (especially not 80+ Shield things). And that leaves, um, the removal of the despotic tile penalty. But hey, Monarchy and Republic get those too.

So, I once againt suggest the following:

1. Set Monarchy's War Weariness to Low.
2. Set Feudalism's War Weariness to None.

If we're afraid that this would cause Feudalism to be strong (I seriously doubt it, though) we could also:

3. Set Feudalism's Military Police Limit to 2 or even 1 (from 3).

---

What we really need is for Feudalism to be a strong warmonger government, Monarchy to be the middle ground, and Republic to be the peacenik government. By default, Monarchy would be "the best" for a typical game, while Republic and Feudalism would be for more focused strategies. This is the only balance that makes sense for what are the game's three main governments.


Dominae

[Aqualung71]

I've said this before and I still believe it. I think both Republic and Democracy should come later, forcing players into other forms of governments (and not necessarily the existing alternatives, but perhaps some new ones too). I also agree that Feudalism should be improved over Monarchy.

Based on its timing of availability, I presume the Republic in Civ3 is meant to represent the "Senate based" Roman Empire system. It doesn't. It more closely represent the post revolution French Republic. War-mongering was part and parcel of the Roman Empire - that's why they controlled most of the civilised world at the time (duh!).

I think the basic concept should be that a later form of government provides a "better" choice in terms of productivity/commerce or WW/unit support/MP, or provides a better government choice for a particular play style at the expense of some other benefit. It seems that the current setup of Feudalism does not stick to this principle, nor does Fascism or Communism, hence their rare use by the human player.

Bottom line is, most players will be able to prosecute a war in Republic for at least 20 turns with sufficient luxuries/happiness buildings/slider use, without having to look towards a more warmonger-friendly government. And Dominae's point also is that in any case, that alternative in the middle ages would be Mondarchy, not Feudalism.

For me at least, once I'm in Republic the decision-making process for governments just disappears. The only exception is if I'm playing a Religious civ (which I used to do regularly in the early days, but rarely now), I will probably switch to Democracy at some point.

[Nisku]

Ok, here is how most of my games have gone. I've only lost one emporer level game out of the six I've played and that was because I was a little inebriated during the game play. OK, I was a lot inebriated.

I pack my towns very close together for a quick start. I designate certain towns as my "permanent" towns and other towns as my "camp" towns. In my camp towns I build a barracks and military units or I build a granary and workers/settlers. My first 3-4 cities will be these camps set up around my palace. Occasionaly I will build a temple in one of my camps just for some cheap culture. In my permanent towns I build up like I would a regular city. My civ is always low on corruption/waste with this set up. The big drawback is not much territory but that can be compensated for by destroying your enemies and capturing theirs.

I start warfare early, usually shortly after I meet my first opponent. I try to extort a tech or two during the ancient age with peace treaties. I skip through the optional techs and head straight for feudalism. Before I switch to the feudalism government I get peace from all my enemies because of the war weariness I will undoubtebly suffer. I then research chivalry, in all my games but one I've played with a knight UU. After I get chivalry I amass a huge army, Ansar warriors are especially good for this since they are cheaper. I also amass a huge army of workers. I can easily get unit support of 100-200 with feudalism in most games. Once my force is built I attack. War weariness can be a factor if I'm not able to capture all my objectives quick enough but it isn't a huge factor. When my war is over I rinse, wash and repeat the above.

After a few good wars I'll switch over to democracy or communism, both excellent governments. By the time I get hospitals I'll have slowly disbanded my "camps" and turned them into workers and settlers. I then add these to my permanent cities or I use them for building rail.

[ducki]

What we really need is for Feudalism to be a strong warmonger government,

I'm not sure I agree with this push.
I think Feudalism's strength IS in unit support.
It gives you enough units to :
a) fight a multifront war
b) demolish a civ in short order
c) fight oscillating wars for later pruning than normal
And all with no rivers or aqueducts to grow past size 6 in all but your most important of cities.

And again, it allows you to skip at least 2 Ancient techs.

I'd suggest that certain map settings will make Feudalism more worth it - arid, hot(or cold), overloaded # of civs, pangea.

I'm all for tweaking it a bit, but I'd rather weaken Monarchy AND Republic - if Feudalism is too attractive, we end up in the same boat as before - one government switch very early.

I desperately want to see a majority of players looking forward to Democracy, Communism or Fascism on a regular basis. Any improvement of the Ancient governments makes this even harder. Let's continue adjusting Republic and Monarchy downwards until two things happen - Feudalism is widely viewed as a good option and none of the three is viewed as an end-game government.

That's my pie in the sky anyway.

[Aqualung71]

Originally posted by ducki
I desperately want to see a majority of players looking forward to Democracy, Communism or Fascism on a regular basis.

....which is what I'm also advocating ducki. The "end-game" governments just come way too early. Try pushing Republic or Democracy back to the early Industrial Age for example, when you are building Factories/Plants/ToE/Hoovers and see who switches now!

[Dominae]

Originally posted by ducki
a) fight a multifront war
b) demolish a civ in short order

The best way to do this in Civ3 is just to build a bunch of units, upgrade them and launch a decisive sudden strike (possibly against multiple targets). The best government for this, despite unit supports costs, is still Republic. Where Monarchy and Feudalism fit in is when you need to be fighting (or are fighting) right now.

c) fight oscillating wars for later pruning than normal

Feudalism does not really help here, due to the War Weariness. Hence my above post.

And all with no rivers or aqueducts to grow past size 6 in all but your most important of cities.

You're making it sound as though this is an advantage. Let's say you do manage to prune back a couple of of neighbors with your zounds of units and small cities to support them: what do you do then? You're in pretty bad shape economically; not only to do you need another goverment switch to get back on track, but you need to grow your cities to respectable levels for the late-game and catch up on improvements (including, most pertinently, Aqueducts). Small cities is a prerequisite for Feudalism, not a feature.

And again, it allows you to skip at least 2 Ancient techs.

Waiting for Feudalism to get rid of the despotic tile penalty is certainly a disadvantage.

---

As you can see Feudalism has it's fair share of problems. Increased supports costs alone is simply not enough to base a goverment around. Here's another stab at describing my vision:

Feudalism: bad for building, good for warmongering
Republic: good for building, bad for warmongering
Monarchy: average for both

Monarchy therefore becomes the default government choice, as it should be (both for gameplay and historical reasons). In terms of gameplay, as the closest tech from Despotism it provides quick rewards, but suffers from neither warmongering or building particularly well. Feudalism and Republic are more difficult to attain, but benefit from being more focused. Democracy replaces Republic; Fascism replaces Feudalism. Communism is just weird.


Dominae

[ducki]

Good points, but I just have to harp on one...

not only to do you need another goverment switch to get back on track, but you need to grow your cities to respectable levels for the late-game and catch up on improvements

Yes. Yes, yes, yes yesssssssss.

Now let's make the other two Ancient governments that "bad". Let's make two switches the standard.

Either that or the late game governments are going to need boosting so much that it won't fit the mod.

[vmxa1]

Dominae using the term "zounds" makes me ask if you were/are a Heroes fan.

I see Feudalism the same way you do and no case has been presented to make it attractive to a non religious civ IMO, in its current form.

[Cryptor]

Theres one thing that people never seem to mention in regard to feudalism, and thats the whip. The power of the whip can not be ignored. Feudalism is the only ancient government without the tile penalty and with the whip. These two factors combined make otherwise corrupt and useless outling cities in republic or monarchy reasonable produces of units if they are in a area of reasonably high food, due to the lack of a tile penalty. (Despotism rarely gets these high food cities unless they're in a field of cows, due to the tile penalty). This, combined with the free unit support of towns in fuedalism, makes feudalism very powerful in situations where you have lots of high food producing towns. If this is combined with extra unit support of 1, it makes the government one that provides run away victories for strong sprawlling civs.

Admitedly, feudalism is weak in some situations due to its war weariness and low city support, so I've reduced its unit support cost to 2, on par with republic. Anything lower extremely overpowers the government in certain situations, and whats worse is that it over powers the government in favour of the stronger civs.

[Aqualung71]

Cryptor, I think people know that the whip is there, but perhaps discount it substantially because of the lasting unhappiness it causes, which can be quite counterproductive. I've used the whip on many occasions under despotism, but will only do so now when absolutely necessary.

BTW, do you know whether there is any difference in the despotism whip and the feudalism whip? Do they both result in the same amount of "we cannot forget the cruel oppression" type unhappiness?

[Dominae]

Originally posted by vmxa1
Dominae using the term "zounds" makes me ask if you were/are a Heroes fan.

I was never a big fan, but that's definitely where I picked up the term.

[alexman]

It seems to me that if you add war weariness to Monarchy, it will become an ancient-only government for the special case where you don't have access to enough luxuries. As a result, people will choose Republic as their first government even more often than they do now.

[ducki]

will become an ancient-only government for the special case

You know that feeling you get when the AIs get out of despotism before you do and you just can't wait to be able to revolt and get up to speed? How can we duplicate that feeling for the last 3 governments?

Yes, there are the special cases where staying in Despotism a bit longer makes sense, but you still switch as soon as you can, and those are special circumstances.

How can we make staying in Republic/Monarchy after Demo/Com/Fasc become available the "special case" and the desire to change to a modern government as strong as the desire to leave despotism?