Apolyton University Mod (Thread II)

[Dominae]

Originally posted by CerberusIV
Either of these options would "improve" the AI but not handicap the human. Most of the comments against making Navigation mandatory are based on this change being a limitation on the human - so a better approach IMHO is to boost the AI instead.

It is very difficult (as in impossible) to boost the AI without also boosting the human player. For instance, the "doubled Specialists" change certainly makes the AI slightly more effective, but the human can also exploit the change quite well. The goal is to make changes such that the AI benefits more than the human, and doubled Specialists (I believe) is an example of this.

But I see no reason why "handicapping" the human player is also not a valid option. This is already done in such changes as the increased OCN, where it takes longer before the FP is available to be built. Notice that this "handicap" is not all that great, and most players are willing to live with it.

I believe the change to Navigation "handicaps" the player in a similar way. From the discussion on this thread and the Navigation poll, it seems players research Navigation independently of whether it is mandatory or required. Therefore I cannot see how this would affect strategy very much.

And by restricting the human's trading potential, the AI would be improved (if indirectly).


Dominae

[badams52]

Originally posted by CerberusIV
Making Navigation mandatory doesn't improve the AI, it handicaps the human player. To level things out without handicapping the human either means leaving Navigation as optional and encouraging the AI to go for Magnetism or making Navigation mandatory but having it give a benefit that makes it a must have for the human.

Actually I would say this isn't much of a handicap for the human. If you're leading in tech at this point, the game's over (and why would you be playing the AU mod if you didn't want more of a challenge). If you're not leading in tech, it's just as easy to trade for navigation than it was before cause now the AI must research it.

Actually, maybe the reason I don't see this as a human handicap is that I've never skipped navigation on my way to the industrial era--I've always managed to trade for it or research it (I like to be able to explore with my ships and get map money and magnatism is too far away), but I guess it could be done.

[CerberusIV]

I think there is a bigger issue here in that there are a lot of optional techs in the medieval period, more than any other, and the human can bypass them to get to the industrial and trade for the optional techs later. I guess many people only go for techs that give a specific GW they want and democracy (because the AI places a high value on government techs).

The real issue is perhaps whether a tech at the end of an optional part of the tech tree should be made mandatory (and therefore optional techs on the way are mandatory too) so that the human player can't skip as many techs in the medieval.

There is probably a stronger argument for making economics mandatory, rather than navigation, in order to be able to manage an industrial era empire. That does however make democracy mandatory as well, which none of the government techs are at present.

I would be happy with a general approach of fewer optional techs which should force the human to research and trade techs more and be less able to exploit the AI.

[CerberusIV]

Looking at navigation in particular, I wonder if one answer would be to remove ocean trading from magnetism and give it to combustion. Exploration would presumably still be possible without navigation as galleons and frigates could cross ocean but a player who wants/needs to trade across ocean would have to get navigation or wait until mid-industrial.

Or just remove ocean trading from magnetism if this causes the AI to value navigation higher?

[Dominae]

Originally posted by CerberusIV
Or just remove ocean trading from magnetism if this causes the AI to value navigation higher?

I thought of this as well, but did not propose it, in fear of the outcries of "it would remove strategic options!". If Navigation (an optional tech) were to unlock the ability to trade across Ocean, it would arguably not be mandatory at all.

Yet this is the whole point, and it is also why I like this solution. Note that certain techs, like The Republic and Military Tradition have abilities so useful that they're, for all intents and purposes, mandatory. The only games where you would not want Cavalry around are those where you're either very far ahead (and able to just fly into the Industrial age unscathed in order to get at all the goodies there) or very far behind (where you would rather just get "industrialized" as quickly as possible). Similarly with Navigation, if it were the only tech to allow Ocean trade: in some games, Ocean trade is simply not all that useful.

What do others think about this alternative change?


Dominae

[Theseus]

Tricky tricky... what would be the effect on the valuation of other techs?

Keep it simple. Make Navigation mandatory.

[Nor Me]

From the statistically significant one game (AU207), the changes to Mathematics and Mapmaking do seem to make the AI research a greater variety of techs. But the player can still exploit the AI's research path. A 40-turn Currency or even Construction is now possible.

I'd like to repeat my previous criticism of the descision to take the defensive flag away from the Bowman. Even if the current upgrade path is kept, the period where the Babylonians would have longbowmen instead of pikemen defending cities is going to be short compared to the period when the Bowman is the best defender.
I should not be able to archer rush Babylon so easily .

Originally posted by Dominae
in some games, Ocean trade is simply not all that useful.

?

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by Theseus
Strike the last two.

Well, all the powers listed above had some fleet... but ships comparable to those represented by "navigation"?

India was navigating way before Spain was, but only from Africa to Indonesia...

ok, maybe India could be included.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Nor Me
I should not be able to archer rush Babylon so easily.

*** AU207 Spoiler ***

The reason you were able to Archer-rush the Babs easily in AU207 is their start location. The Babs originally had a great start spot down there (closer to the River, with some Bonus Grasslands and Game), and it felt like they might be a little too strong so early on (I did want to be too "evil" after the Greeks situation in AU 204).

So it is still an open question as to whether Bowmen Offense/Defense flags should be altered.

Concerning your confusion about my statement that Ocean trade is sometimes not all that useful, I am, of coourse, speaking in relative terms. In some games I would never trade the option to get Cavalry ASAP for the ability to trade over Ocean tiles. Also consider that on of my main strategies with civs on other continents is to sign alliances with the weaker ones against the stronger ones. So I do not get to benefit from trading with the best overseas civs. This is fine with me, as (in my experience) the benefits of keeping the AI at war far outweigh the benefits of peaceful trade.


Dominae

[CerberusIV]

Following on from my post in the Navigation poll thread (apologies for jumping threads) about whether there are too many optional techs I would like to suggest a more drastic change (not too drastic for the AU mod I hope ).

The intention is to reduce the number of optional techs in the medieval/industrial to reduce the opportunity for the human to exploit the AI by skipping techs and picking them up cheaply later.

I would suggest that no more than a quarter of the techs in any era should be optional as a rule of thumb.

First I would suggest an increase in the optional techs in the Ancient era by making Horseback Riding optional. This would allow the human to not fall quite as far behind at that point in the game. It seems odd that HBR is mandatory when Chivalry and MT are not. Also the Wheel shows the horse resource and why should a civ with no horses and no immediate prospect of getting any have to research HBR?

Second I would suggest reducing the Medieval optional techs to no more than five. Printing Press is mandatory in AU and I would propose adding Economics and Navigation as mandatory techs. Economics because otherwise where do the Corporation, stock exchanges and Wall Street come from? Navigation for the reasons Dominae has expounded. It might even be worth considering making Navigation a prerequisite for Magnetism. That way Astronomy would give sea travel/trading, Navigation would open it up to oceans and then Magnetism would introduce the advanced ships to take full advantage.

Third I would suggest reducing the Industrial optional techs to five by making advanced flight mandatory. Forcing players to research this would give the AI (if it is still in the game) a better shot at getting into the modern age in time to grab one or two of the GW's. Also, advanced flight gives helicopters which many of the modern technologies and improvements rely on in the real world.

If this is too radical for the AU mod would someone please say so and I will shut up on the subject

[nbarclay]

If I'm the only one seriously opposed to making Navigation mandatory, I guess I could live with making the change. If we do it, though, I'd like to make Navigation a prerequisite for Magnetism. If all civs have to go through the "Navigation" stage of naval development, it seems only reasonable that they do it before Magnetism. And in gameplay terms, that would (1) guarantee that there's always a brief window where players can launch cross-ocean caravel invasions earlier than they could do the same with galleons and (2) perhaps narrow the window for intercontinental cavalry conquest a tad since the better invasion ship would come a little later.

[Dominae]

I'll post a more complete reply to CerberusIV and Nathan later on today.

For now, let me just point out that a relatively major consequence of making Navigation a prerequeisite for Magnetism is that Galleons and Frigates are pushed even further back into tech development. In many games this means Frigates (and even Galleons) will have an even smaller window of use.

I know it "makes sense" to make Navigation a prerequisite, but it does not help gameplay very much, and changes it rather drastically. The minimalist approach, simply making Navigation mandatory, is I think the best solution.


Dominae

[player1]

Originally posted by CerberusIV
First I would suggest an increase in the optional techs in the Ancient era by making Horseback Riding optional. This would allow the human to not fall quite as far behind at that point in the game. It seems odd that HBR is mandatory when Chivalry and MT are not. Also the Wheel shows the horse resource and why should a civ with no horses and no immediate prospect of getting any have to research HBR?

It's interesting to note that in non-patched Civ3, Hosreback Riding was an OPTIONAL tech.

The patches have changed that.

[player1]

Originally posted by Dominae
For now, let me just point out that a relatively major consequence of making Navigation a prerequeisite for Magnetism is that Galleons and Frigates are pushed even further back into tech development. In many games this means Frigates (and even Galleons) will have an even smaller window of use.

How so, if Navigation is also made mandatory?

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Dominae

For now, let me just point out that a relatively major consequence of making Navigation a prerequeisite for Magnetism is that Galleons and Frigates are pushed even further back into tech development. In many games this means Frigates (and even Galleons) will have an even smaller window of use.

I'm not sure I buy that. Putting Navigation before Magnetism would have some effect of encouraging players to research Theory of Gravity before Magnetism if they don't have Navigation yet, in which case the window for galleons and frigates would be one tech shorter. But on the other hand, having players research Magnetism before Navigation if they didn't get Navigation earlier (since Magnetism provides better ships and Navigation doesn't) would strecth out the window for those ship types by an extra tech.

Further, any extension to or protection of the life of galleons and frigates would come at the expense of completely eliminating the life of ocean-going caravels (except as non-upgraded anachronisms). Since almost everything about Navigation is built around ocean-going caravels (either directly or as the implicit vessels of Magellan's Voyage and cross-ocean trade before galleons), forcing players to research Navigation yet having no window at all for ocean-going caravels seems nonsensical to me.

Nathan