Apolyton University Mod (Thread II)

[Stuie]

And change the Sipahi to 7? And what about Cossacks? 5-4-3?

The change in attack value sounds reasonable. I like the 3 movement for cavalry because they cannot upgrade to anything, but having the extra move means they still have some utility (scouts, raids into enemy territory to pillage/capture workers, etc.) once tanks come in to play.

[alexman]

How about this:

Move Cavalry to Nationalism. Perhaps change cost to 90 and attack to 7. Add a new 5-3-3, cost 80 unit (Dragoon) to Military Tradition, between Knights and Cavalry in the upgrade chain.

Dragoons can either use the Cavalry animation, or the "Nakamoro Horseman" graphic that comes with PTW (in the Med. Japan extra units).

[sabrewolf]

until now it looks like the recommendations are for civ3 vanilla and PTW, nothing explicitly for conquests.
so my question: would these ideas (if they get accepted) come in the regular AU- and PTW AU-mod or is it only for c3c?

how about a new thread for c3c-only stuff, where a lot of new stuff will have to be considered (new wonders means more prebuild possibilities), sceintific leaders means more wonders/faster research, etc.


alexman, to your last post: i think the computer already overvalues nationalism. it's virtually impossible to buy the tech. another offensive unit would make it more expensive

i like the current cycle of strongest units alternating between offensive and defensive forces. there's always a short phase where the offense is in advantage, then a longer time when there's none (always counting that the defence is fortified in the town/city) and no overwhelming forces or bombarding

warrior/archer (off), spearman (def), swordsman/horseman (off), pikeman (def), knight (off), musketeer (def), cavalry (off), rifleman (def), infantry (off/def), tank (off), MI (def), MA (off).

the only real break in this path is the infantry... until tank it's really hard to crush an infantry-defended city..

a dragoon would fit in quite nicely, if you add another tech. eg. (civ2-inspired) conscription, a prereq. tech for nationalism. riflemen would come with that and nationalism would bring you cavalry (maybe even 7|3|3).
the downside: the mod would need an aditional tech, which hasn't yet happend in an AU mod so far...

but i do agree that cavalry currently is a gamebreaker. specially if you've been beelining for MT

[Dominae]

Originally posted by alexman
How about this:

Move Cavalry to Nationalism. Perhaps change cost to 90 and attack to 7. Add a new 5-3-3, cost 80 unit (Dragoon) to Military Tradition, between Knights and Cavalry in the upgrade chain.

Is there anything in particular that you do not like about Theseus' 5-attack suggestion that brings you to propose this far more drastic solution. Like I've said before (way back when we were actually making changes to the AU mod!), adding an entire new unit is IMO the epitome of "drastic change". Are you, like me, not fond of odd attack values!?

(By the way, I destroyed a Secret Police by bombardment the other day...it was very satisfying.)


Dominae

[alexman]

No, I like Theseus' idea of 5 attack. The new unit (Dragoon) is actually the same as Theseus' Cavalry. The 7-attack unit at Nationalism (Cavalry) was my attempt to address your concern that there would be no good offensive unit between Nationalism and Tanks.

[Stuie]

Or we could take a page out of C3C, and have Cavalry I at Military Tradition (5-3-3) and Cavalry II at Nationalism (6-3-3).

[alexman]

Originally posted by sabrewolf
would these ideas (if they get accepted) come in the regular AU- and PTW AU-mod or is it only for c3c?

The AU mod so far has been always based on the latest version of Civ3. There is no official version of the mod for vanilla Civ3, for example. So I think these new changes will wait until conquests is out, and then they will be for that version only.

how about a new thread for c3c-only stuff, where a lot of new stuff will have to be considered (new wonders means more prebuild possibilities), sceintific leaders means more wonders/faster research, etc.

I think let's wait until C3C is out, and we have played a couple of games with it before suggesting improvements on it! We don't all have the honor of being on the beta testing team!

i think the computer already overvalues nationalism. it's virtually impossible to buy the tech. another offensive unit would make it more expensive

Adding a new unit would not make much of a difference, as the major reason for the AI value of Nationalism is conscription, mobilization, and the no-resource defender. An attacker that requires a resource makes comparatively little difference to the AI value.

[alexman]

Originally posted by Stuie
Or we could take a page out of C3C, and have Cavalry I at Military Tradition (5-3-3) and Cavalry II at Nationalism (6-3-3).

Is this a fact? Or are you refering to those screenshots of the different levels of Legionaries in a scenario?

[alexman]

I like it.
5-3-3, cost 80 Cavalry at Military tradition.
6-3-3, cost 80 Cavalry II at Nationalism.

Cavalry is really the same old unit - you just have to wait until Nationalism to get the extra attack point (for free).

[Stuie]

Yeah, I was basing it on the screenshorts with the different Roman Legions. But it would be easy enough to implement with the current editor, and would appropriately nerf the Cavalry unit in the short term, while strengthening it when the better defender (rifleman) appears. For me, it would also be a reason not to beeline to Replaceable Parts, which is usually my strategy. I would be more inclined to actually research Nationalism rather than waiting for it to plummet in value and trading for it.

[Dominae]

I must say, I like it too. We could "market" it as: "When you get Nationalism, you Cavalry get a free upgrade (because they're full of nationalistic fervor, or whatever)". We could call the 5/3/3 version 'Cavalry', and just add an adjective to the 6/3/3 version, like 'Advanced Cavalry' (as you can see I'm not very creative).

I sure hope the 5/3/3 version is "weak enough" to address the problem it is meant to solve.


Dominae

[Dominae]

Originally posted by alexman
I think let's wait until C3C is out, and we have played a couple of games with it before suggesting improvements on it! We don't all have the honor of being on the beta testing team!

You're going to love C3C! (That's about all I can say....)


Dominae

[vmxa1]

If you have the cavalry change at nationalism, how will it work if military tradition is skipped?

[alexman]

Just as it works now when you skip Chivalry!

[vmxa1]

What I was wondering is with a 5/3/3, people may go for Chivalry and see no reason to grab MT. Especally those with three move knight units, such as Answar and Rider.
People without those units skip Chivalry and go for MT, but now they can take the cheaper tech and forgo MT.