Apolyton University Mod (PTW version)

[alexman]

Communism again

It turns out that Communism as used by the AI is not as bad as we thought. At least it's not as bad as it is for the human.

As we know, for the human who has a good Capital/FP placement, Monarchy is almost always the better war-time government. But for the AI, which generally places the FP close to its palace, Communism is about as good as Monarchy.

To prove this point, I did a simple test. I made a rectangular grid of 25 cities (the OCN was 16), spaced 3 tiles apart on a diagonal. I put courthouses everywhere, and police stations in all cities (but not in towns). The following diagram shows the city arrangement, where the numbers are the city sizes:

 |   A  B  C  D  E
------------------
1|   9  9  9  9  6
2|   9 12 12  9  6
3|   9 12 12  9  6
4|   9  9  9  9  6
5|   6  6  6  6  6

With the Palace at position B2, and the FP at B3, which is a realistic AI setup because the AI usually has its Palace and FP close to each other and its total number of cities rarely go over 150% of the OCN, the percentage of commerce lost to corruption was 20% for Monarchy and 21% for Communism!

When I moved the FP to D4, which is more like what the human would try to do, the corruption for Monarchy dropped to 15% (and of course for Communism it remains 21%).

On top of that, humans usually have more than 150% the OCN. A typical game where the human is achieving UP is more like 250% the OCN, with all those cities being productive. A switch to communism in this case would be even worse for the human.

So, to summarize, because of better FP placement, Communism is almost never a better option than Monarchy for the human player. But for the AI, these two governments can be comparable.

Communism still needs bonuses to help the AI that chooses it over Monarchy, but not huge ones.

Consider adding an extra courthouse-type improvement, specific to Communism, to each of the 25 cities in the example above. This would bring corruption down to 16% for Communism, helping the AI in its choice to select Communism over Monarchy in the first configuration, but still not giving the human a better government that Monarchy (15%) in the second configuration.

I believe this is the best way to balance Communism.

[Dominae]

Re: Communism again

Originally posted by alexman
Consider adding an extra courthouse-type improvement, specific to Communism, to each of the 25 cities in the example above. This would bring corruption down to 16% for Communism, helping the AI in its choice to select Communism over Monarchy in the first configuration, but still not giving the human a better government that Monarchy (15%) in the second configuration.

Why would the AI select Communism over Monarchy with an added improvement? I assume you mean that the improvement will help the AI since it already chooses Communism over Monarchy, given it builds the improvement with any regularity.

I must say I like this solution compared to the ones proposed above, essentially because it does not change the human's strategy very much (and therefore the feel of the game). However, I'm still not sure why the changes I myself proposed are not satisfactory. Basically they all work together to make Communism (and therefore the AI) better. If the Republic and Democracy are better than Communism in the long run, so be it. Communism just needs to be better than Monarchy in wartime.


Dominae

[alexman]

Re: Re: Communism again

Originally posted by Dominae
I assume you mean that the improvement will help the AI since it already chooses Communism over Monarchy, given it builds the improvement with any regularity.

Sorry I was not clear. Your assuption is correct. We can help the AI build the improvement immediately by giving it other redundant properties like veteran military units. Barracks do not become useless, because Communism is temporary.

Communism just needs to be better than Monarchy in wartime.

We agree 100% here. The changes you proposed are definitely an alternative worth considering, and all make Communism better than it was, but it is still does not come close to Monarchy for any decent FP placement.

The difference in the two suggestions is whether we want to help the AI a little, or if we want to help the AI as much as possible without changing human strategy.

[alexman]

Sorry, somehow I posted before I was done...

The "communist courthouse" approach is the most we can help the AI without forcing the human to consider Communism instead of Monarchy. OK, the human might consider using Communism for war if he has terrible (or no) FP placement, but I think this is not very common, and even if it is, it's a welcome strategic option. Note that this corruption reduction is in some ways a bigger change than the previous small wonder suggestion of happiness enough for a WLTKD. WLTKD affects waste (and the small wonder works only on the same continent), whereas the extra courthouse affects both waste and corruption everywhere it is built.

The "Dominae tweaks" approach changes very little, so that's good. The changes will benefit the player in a defensive war, since he needs units in his cities to take advantage of the MP bonus (he will be able to either draft without unhappiness, or build units and to get WLTKD). But Communism is still not as good as Monarchy, even with terrible FP placement. The AI does not take full advantage of the MP limit, but the changes should help a little, especially defensively. But is defense what we want to strengthen here? Tougher defense means more bloody battles of attrition, which in turn means less killer AIs (and perhaps more late-game tedium).

[Mazarin]

I'm not sure whether a new corruption-reducing improvement would help much...will the AI build these new improvements during a war or will it prefer units instead?-Further I'm not sure that communism is a bad choice for the AI as it makes up for its bad FP-placement. What really counts in communism is that a FP has been built -no matter where...Maybe this is better than monarchy where only a small AI-area is productive.

[alexman]

Mazarin, see the test. Communism is worse than Monarchy, even with the worst FP placement.

As for whether the AI will build the new improvement, the answer is yes, especially if you make it cheap and give it the abilities of a barracks.

[Mazarin]

...sorry, I didn't see that before my first post .

[ducki]

alexman =
you edited out a comment about making Communism good enough that the human would consider it over Monarchy...

I feel that is - or should be - the goal.
It should not be obviously and categorically better than Monarchy, but it also should not be obviously and categorically worse...

If it's good enough that it would be considered and occasionally and situationally chosen, then I think it's right.

Currently, Communism is the only of the "real" governments that is never the right choice.
In keeping with both Improve AI and Increase Strategic Choice for Human, I think that the goal "should" be making Communism good enough for human consideration.

[alexman]

This this the eternal dilema we get by setting two conflicting goals for this mod: Making minimum changes versus giving more strategic depth.

I think that the right balance is to make Communism the best wartime government for the AI, most of the time. This makes sure we help the AI as much as possible, without seriously changing human strategy. Still, if a human player finds himself in the circumstances of a typical AI (i.e. bad FP placement, or no FP) then Communism will be the right government for him too.

The real question is how to achieve this balance.

[Dominae]

alexman, as usual I'm quite ready to test out your new proposal (in this case, regarding Communism); I've been wrong in the past, and I'll surely be wrong again. I'm quite happy that the latest proposal does not change human strategy too much, which (as you may know) is important for me (along with only even Attack/Defense values!).

However, here are some things to think about (in case you haven't already):

1. Correct cost for the new improvement. If the cost is too high, the AI will either not build it, or will waste a lot of time building it. If the cost is too low, then switching to Communism will be too much of an immediate boost, which feels wrong. Ideally the cost should be such that the AI will consider building it under Communism, but still require a few turns to construct.

2. Effects for the human player. Will a good FP placement always favor Monarchy, or will the improved Communism be better once the new improvement has been built in all cities? If the human player has many many cities, will the reduction in Corruption due to Courthouses, Police Stations, and 'Improvement X' be better than a partially corrupt empire in Monarchy (or even the Republic or Democracy)?

3. Balanced level of corruption-reduction. Again, the compounded effect of Courthouses, Police Stations and the new improvement should not be too great (factoring in the Commercial trait as well).

4. Upkeep cost and Culture. Should the improvement have either of these?


Finally, I will try to test the changes I proposed earlier when I get the chance. I can see how they only add to the "attrition factor" of AI to AI warfare; I was only thinking about a Communist AI putting up a good fight against the human player. If the changes I proposed detract from creating Killer AIs, then clearly something is wrong.

Oh, and Merry Christmas everyone!




Dominae

[Mad Bomber]

this is just a random thought, but what about changing rush buying to cash instead of whipping for a communist gov?

would this be a good thing for the AI or would this benefit the player more?

Finally a mod that I have found helpful to AI's is to have tanks, MA's and MI's have 3 moves and the all terrain as roads flag enabled, the AI is very profecient in taking advantage of the change.

[=DrJambo=]

Possible Government tweaks.

Hi folks, i have just spent nearly 2 hours reading this thread and i have a couple of ideas on how to modify and/or help to make Communism more of a Government of choice.

1. Have you considered adding rate caps for each of the Government types similar to the way Civ2 had? For instance, why not limit Despotism to 7 (= 70% slider max for science or tax), Monarchy and Republic to 8 and Communism and Democracy to 9 or 10. This way Communism has an advantage over Monarchy and Republic of being able to set the slider to 100%.

2. Why not alter the unhappiness turn penalties for drafting or sacrificing citizens? Instead of 20 turns, why not set it to 10 or 15 turns. This could make Communism quite attractive given a situation where a civilisation is bursting at the seams with people. The AI will also be less likely to succumb to the "dwindling empire" syndrome associated with excessive use of drafting and sacrificing.

This option probably has the potential to give the greatest help to Communism, although it also affects Despotism and may imbalance the Ancient period. If combined with no. 1 above, however, then the advantage to Despotism could be offset by imposing a noticeable rate cap on the slider a la Civ2.


3. Consider toying with the "Immune to:" options for Communism?

4. Consider modifying the rate of assimilation or the propaganda modifiers for Communism.

All these possibilities are far less drastic than some of suggestions mentioned previously in this thread.

What do you think?

[player1]

What about making Pop-Rush more productive.

Like making it give 30 shields instead of 20.

Althogh there is possibility of making Despotism a little bit unbalanced.

Or maybe not?

[=DrJambo=]

ehhe yeah, i thought of that as soon as i posted!

Indeed, maybe making the pop-rush more productive would be the better option? Difficult to say.

By the way, can someone please explain and elaborate on this debug mode that i keep hearing about?

Ta

[ducki]

There's an option to make a scenario run in Debug mode on the Scenario Options dialog box.