AU mod: The ToE - Hoover beeline

[Dominae]

I understand your point, alexman, but I believe you've missed mine.

I agree that it's hard to "deal" with the Theory of Evolution, and that giving the human player more options is a good way to go. But the option you're opening up here, I believe we will find, is actually a no-brainer.

With two techs off the route to Motorized Transportation, it's obvious (to me) that the best play if you want to win is get the Theory of Evolution, then beeline to Tanks. You're sure to get there first, and earlier than you used to. This is because the AIs can sometimes actually catch up with you in tech when Motorized Transportation is two techs further away; in relatively close games, the Theory of Evolution does not guarantee military dominace with Tanks.

Let the AIs research for Hoover Dam! I'll just use my ToE powers to trade for Electronics, all the while plowing through to Motorized Transportation. And we all know what getting Tanks earlier means versus the AI (hint: it means you win).

This is too big a change to just throw in with all the rest. There has been very little discussion about it. I know we want to get a first version out ASAP (and I commend your efforts in this regard, alexman!), but changing the entire character of an era is not something we want to rush into (if at all).


Dominae

[Dominae]

Basically what I'm trying to say is that there are many ways to tackle this problem, and we seem to be jumping on a very radical one very quickly. How about slowing it down a little and considering a few options? This thread has been in existence for only ~2 weeks!


Dominae

[Dominae]

Now that I'm all passionate about this , here's another idea (based on alexman Airport idea): the Theory of Evolution requires a Police Station to build.

Forget for the moment the realism aspects of this (frankly, because it's not realistic at all). What does this do? Well, before you can build the Theory of Evolution, you need to: 1) acquire Communism, and 2) build a Police Station in the city where you'll want the ToE. The first point helps the AI because it loves Communism (it hurts the human player because we hate Communism!). The second point hurts the human player because it's that much harder to prebuild for the ToE.

The only potential problem with this (than I can see) is that hopefully the AI prioritizes Police Stations, because if not it will not get around to building the ToE very fast.

Thoughts?


Dominae

[lockstep]

Originally posted by Dominae
Let the AIs research for Hoover Dam! I'll just use my ToE powers to trade for Electronics, all the while plowing through to Motorized Transportation.

OTOH, you could let the AIs research the 'upper' branch of the tech tree, use your ToE powers (Atomic Theory, Electronics) to trade for, say, The Corporation, Steel and Refining, and also plow through to Motorized Transportation. The difference to the stock version is, IMO, that you face a difficult choice (Hoover vs. Tanks) if your options to trade techs are more limited.

[alexman]

Originally posted by Dominae
With two techs off the route to Motorized Transportation, it's obvious (to me) that the best play if you want to win is get the Theory of Evolution, then beeline to Tanks.

Besides what lockstep already mentioned about going for Electronics and using the AI to get the upper techs by trade, I can think of several other situations where you might want to choose the lower branch:
- You aim for a fast spaceship launch, and the lower branch offers the most expensive techs to choose to get for free.
- You aim for a spaceship launch, and you need the extra production of Hoover.
- You need many tanks, and the fastest way to get them is to use Hoover to boost your production. Unlike a Cavalry attack, you can't rely on upgrades to build Tanks, so a detour through Electronics might actually get you your Tanks faster, even if you delay getting Motorized Transportation.
- The AI you want to attack already has Infantry.

Having said all this, the ToE police station requirement is interesting, even though the effect on gameplay is not smaller than Motorized Transportation's change in prerequisites. It's just different.

[Dominae]

It's a far more conservative change because: 1) it does not change the entire tech tree for the era, 2) it helps the AI, and 3) it makes ToE less powerful.

That's more the type of change I have in mind regarding the Industrial era in the AU mod. We can create new strategic decisions for the human player all we want, but the more we do so the further we go from stock. How about we make the upper branck of the Medieval era more attractive by changing the University cost to 120 Shields? Would that not then offer an incentive not to beeline for Cavalry?

OTOH, you could let the AIs research the 'upper' branch of the tech tree, use your ToE powers (Atomic Theory, Electronics) to trade for, say, The Corporation, Steel and Refining, and also plow through to Motorized Transportation. The difference to the stock version is, IMO, that you face a difficult choice (Hoover vs. Tanks) if your options to trade techs are more limited.

Huh? This does not work. You want to beeline for Tanks, so you might as well take two techs along that path for free (even if they cost slightly less...two free techs typically puts most of AI gpt in your pockets). By waiting for the AI to research the techs for you, you further the date of world domination by Tanks.

---

It's a good point that the Electronics prerequisite version does present an interesting option in terms of the Spaceship. But look at what you're creating! Instead of saying: "The ToE is too powerful, let's make it a bit weaker for the human player", you're saying "The ToE is too powerful, let's at least let the human player translate this power into his or her choice of an easy victory." We can do better than that.

I'm a firm believer that in the best interests of the gameplay, a game should not be "over" in the Industrial era. Making the ToE more powerful obviously works against this.

In short, I disagree that both changes are "just different"; they're very different.


Dominae

[alexman]

Scientific Method and Medicine are now off the beeline for Tanks. So you don't gain anything in terms of speed towards Motorized Transportation by getting the ToE. Does that weaken the ToE enough for you?

Assuming you get the ToE, previously you had to research 12 techs (14-2) to get Tanks. Now you have to research 10. Is this really that much faster?

[Dominae]

Yes.

The "detour" for ToE does indeed provide a jumpstart to Tanks, both in terms of absolute Beakers you need accumulate, and relative power of your research rate with that of the other civs.

Any way you look at it, you're making that strategy stronger. You're also leaving the ToE-Hoover route untouched, which we already agree is too strong as well (ironically enough, that's the point of this thread).

ToE needs to be weaker, because it supports both your strategic options. In this sense the Electronics prerequisite solution is not really a solution at all.


Dominae

[alexman]

I can't convince you. Oh, well... you'll see the light by playing, I guess!

[ducki]

I don't have a tech tree handy, so forgive any silliness...

What if ToE required Oil or Replaceable Parts or something else further along the tree? Or better yet, ToE requires a Hospital(I imagine research lab is too far away) Or a University(or 5)?

And then Hoovers requires a Hydro plant(that just seems obvious to me, and elegant, sensible) or some building/resource from the tank/ships line?

[Dominae]

Originally posted by alexman
I can't convince you. Oh, well... you'll see the light by playing, I guess!

I still think we've rushed into this change (no, not only because I'm against it). Perhaps I could convince the panel to wait on this one?

Say it with feeling: the Theory of Evolution is too strong!


Dominae

[Stuie]

Originally posted by Dominae

Say it with feeling: the Theory of Evolution is too strong!

That's why I went so far as suggesting we just remove it, and replace it with Longevity.

But I'm willing to try other solutions...

[Dominae]

Originally posted by ducki
What if ToE required Oil or Replaceable Parts or something else further along the tree? Or better yet, ToE requires a Hospital(I imagine research lab is too far away) Or a University(or 5)?

What's wrong with my Police Station suggestion?

Just to reiterate:

1. It requires the human player to research or trade for some techs only prioritized by the AI. The AI already goes for Communism before Scientific Method.

2. It requires there be a Police Station in the Theory of Evolution city, drastically reducing the potency of a prebuild for that Wonder.

Put together, these things seriously slow down the human player's beeline for the Theory of Evolution, the net effect being that the AI has more of a fighting chance at that point in the game.

In terms of strategic options, there is nothing "new", but it sure changes the way you think about how to secure the ToE. Take a minute to think about it now...How would you do it? Research Scientific Method, prebuild the Theory of Evolution, and trade for Communism? Nope! Research Communism, build a Police Station...sounds a lot like something the AI likes to do! What about...

As you can see, it makes the early-Industrial a lot less obvious, and a lot less of a windfall for us humans.


Dominae

[alexman]

Wasn't this thread about weakening the Toe-Hoover beeline? I think the change to Motorized Transportation accomplishes this in a big way. It gives the age a major choice in research strategy, which wasn't there before.

If you want to weaken the ToE, that's a different issue, and we should have a new, independent proposal and vote.

[ducki]

Man, it's odd when I agree so wholeheartedly with Dominae, but I do.

ToE is woefully overpowered in the hands of the human. There's just no beating it.

Which brings me to Stuie's idea WRT to my previous post - the one that mentions ToE requiring Hospitals because Research labs are to far down the tree.

To me, combining those to ideas is perfect, if not a bit radical.

Move ToE to whichever tech has Research Labs.
Move Longevity to Sanitation or Scientific Method.
ToE requires 1(or 5) Labs.
Longevity Requires 1(or 5) Hospitals - maybe just one, since BM already requires 5.

You could still race to Hoover, but it's not a lock like it is with ToE.
You could still race to tanks, but again, it's not a lock like it is with ToE.

And with ToE that much later, it might be a nice boost to those games you just want to END or it might give the AI a chance at beating you to space(*gasp).


It's not often Dominae and I agree on AU mod issues. I take it as a sign that ...
ToE is overpowered and needs a serious modification to limit the human player's Slingshot to Victory.


Edit:

Wasn't this thread about weakening the Toe-Hoover beeline? I think the change to Motorized Transportation accomplishes this in a big way. It gives the age a major choice in research strategy, which wasn't there before.

But that doesn't weaken the ToE-Hoover beeline.
It just creates two very strong ToE-* beelines, I think.
Yes, it does offer interesting decision for the player, but I think it still boils down to "I must have ToE so I can do X."
ToE-Hoover is overpowered because "I must have ToE." It's a non-choice. You'd be goofy not to get it at almost any cost.