AU mod: The ToE - Hoover beeline

[lockstep]

Originally posted by ducki
As someone that doesn't look that deeply into the numbers, I'd like to say that the research cost means almost nothing to me on the ToE-Hoover Express.

I came up with my initial proposal (tinkering with tech costs) because I was tempted in a few games to take The Corporation as a free tech, but in the end did not because of its lower tech cost. But you may be right and beelining for Hoover is still the best strategy if it means accepting a lot of wasted 'free' research.

This is why I like alexman's proposal even more the longer I think about it. If beelining for Hoover means foregoing a beeline to Motorized Transportation, the choice is much harder. (You may be the one that builds Hoover, but another player may take it away from you with a tank blitz.)

[ducki]

Originally posted by lockstep
(You may be the one that builds Hoover, but another player may take it away from you with a tank blitz.)

While I agree with that sentiment in spirit, I have a hard time believing the AI is going to muster a strong enough attack to get to and take my capital or one of it's immediate neighbors, as that's likely the only place I'll have the shields to actually build Hoover, short of a SGL.

If the AI destroys my core, I've got worse problems than losing Hoover.

I do see your point, though.

[alexman]

It's not only about the AI. It's about giving the human player a choice. Do you want the ToE and Hoover, or do you want to get to Tanks before your AI neighbor gets Infantry, for example?

[lockstep]

Originally posted by ducki
If the AI destroys my core, I've got worse problems than losing Hoover.

I do see your point, though.

OK, losing Hoover may have been an exaggeration, so I'll put it another way: If I'm in the early Industrial age and there are still potent AI civs left (happens most of the time when I'm playing Monarch) and these civs are on a par with me tech-wise and can muster a land-based attack or a naval landing (happens quite some time when I'm playing Emperor) AND Electronics is not a prereq for Motorized Transportation, I'd rather not be the one that gets tanks with a 15-20 turn delay. I may not lose my core (and still posess Hoover), but my empire may be reduced to 60-70% of its former size after a successful AI tank blitz.

[ducki]

Ok, I get it.
My play style dictates a different decision - sticking with the Hoover Gambit, but that's part of what AU is all about - giving the player interesting choices.

Maybe I underestimate the AI or overestimate my military, but I just don't see the AI getting that froggy in 15-20 turns. I could be wrong, though.

[Risa]

A rifleman or an infantry doesn't differ enough from each other in front of tank attack, IMO.

BTW, today I finally see one AI beeline to Militarily Tradition. It was Byzantine with 6 city, sharing a small continent with Zulu and Carthage. Wars among them started at late ancient age and then never thoroughly ended. While France, who owned another small continent and was peace to all others, research Theology - Education - Astronomy as AI usually does in other game.
So I guess it is the continual war drove AI to beeline to Military Tradition, since AI doesn't seems to know predicting or planning wars. Without war, AI will research the upper branch, like France did in that game.

[Theseus]

Soren confirmed a long time ago that the AI is responsive to its 'environment', in this case (or for most players' immeidate neighbors ): warfare.

[alexman]

Originally posted by Risa
A rifleman or an infantry doesn't differ enough from each other in front of tank attack, IMO.

A Veteran Tank wins 69% of the time against a fortified Rifleman in a city. It wins 42% of the time against Infantry in the same situation.

[lockstep]

Originally posted by ducki
Maybe I underestimate the AI or overestimate my military, but I just don't see the AI getting that froggy in 15-20 turns. I could be wrong, though.

Or you could be a better player than I am.

One of the most interesting games I played (on Emperor - could make for a thread in the 'Stories' forum, but not right now) involved an AI that was notedly smaller than my empire, but very well developed and with a small tech lead. Our common land border was a chokepoint (the city had changed sides a few times, but was mine since the middle ages). I had Infantry, Cavalry and some forts. The AI got Motorized Transportation 8 turns before me, and started a tank attack a few turns later. I held the city until I could strike back with my own tanks, but another 10 turns without tanks would have been really nasty.

[alexman]

Now that we have a panel, we can start making decisions:

AU mod panel members, you have 24 hours to vote:

• "Yes" to remove prerequisite of Electronics from Motorized Transportation.
• "No" to make no change.

If the majority votes "No", we will have a new vote on a different proposal (technology cost changes).

My vote: YES!

[lockstep]

I'm also voting for YES.

[Stuie]

YES.

[Theseus]

Yes.

[Dominae]

No!

Sorry, too big a change for me. The Theory of Evolution will be even more powerful, IMO, because it just puts you closer to an now-closer Motorized Transportation. What you guys are voting to create is an Industrial era Cavalry beeline (with Tanks). That's a major change to stock rules.

The Hoover Dam is not the reason to build the Theory of Evolution. I'm not really getting why you guys think this is true. You want to secure the ToE because it will keep you alive and ahead in the tech race. A proper fix, IMO, addresses the issue that the AI does not seem to think this is as big an advantage as the human players know it is.


Dominae

[alexman]

Even though the change already has the required votes (4), let me answer.

First of all, you can't compare a direct path to Motorized Transportation with the direct path to Military Tradition, because the former still involves almost the entire required tech tree.

The Theory evolution is powerful no matter what you do. Two free technologies in the Industrial Era are a huge deal. We are not trying to devalue the ToE, because we can't, unless we remove it from the age.

What we are trying to do is to give players more options in the Industial Age. Dominae, somewhere in the strategy forum there is a thread started by you, outlining in detail the exact research strategy that is best for this age. This is bad. There should be alternative viable research strategies depending on your goals, just like there are in the previous ages.

This change gives you a choice: will you use the ToE to get Hoover and be a good little builder, or will you decide to ride your Tanks to the dark side?

Put simply, using prebuilds, a determined human player reasonably close in technology to the AI will get the ToE, no matter how hard the AI tries. The question is what to do next? Previously, there was no choice. With this change, there is.