AU mod: The ToE - Hoover beeline

[nbarclay]

The idea behind the oil requirement (or Alexman's airport prerequisite idea) would be to have two separate tech requirements on different branches of the tech tree and, in the process, make it less trivial to set up to get it with ToE. Since that can't be done directly, it has to be done either through a resource prerequisite or through a building prerequisite if that's the route we want to go.

I won't mind of we leave Hoover the way it is, but Alexman's airport idea got me looking for alternatives that wouldn't be quite so extreme. When I looked at what the editor allows, tying it to oil was what I was able to come up with.

[alexman]

The problem I see with the oil requirement is that you don't have enough incentive to get away from the exepensive Electronics path with the two free techs of the ToE. Oil is found three techs into the upper branch (two if you take lockstep's advice and go for Industialization before the ToE). I would just use that extra time for my Hoover prebuild, but it wouldn't tempt me to choose the upper branch for my free techs.

I guess the real problem we are trying to address here is that the lower branch provides more advantage than the upper branch, no matter what strategy you wish to pursue.

The two previous ages are well designed, IMO, because each has a short branch (Monarchy, M.Tradition) which is useful for warmongering, but the bulk of the era's advantages come in the large 'builder' branch.

The Industrial Age is different because you need both branches to get the era's warmongering tool (Tanks). So even if you are planning a Tank blitz, you don't lose anything by taking the lower 'builder' branch first.

I would really like it if we removed Motorized Transportation's Electronics requirement.

I realize that this will involve confusion because we will need a graphics download to make the tech tree look right, but at least this will not be a mandatory download (as long as you remember to ignore the arrow from Electronics to M.Transportation, you can play a 4000 BC AU mod save without downloading anything).

Too big of a change for this mod? Maybe, but I think it's just what the Industrial Age needs to make it deeper in terms of strategy.

[lockstep]

Originally posted by alexman
I would really like it if we removed Motorized Transportation's Electronics requirement.

This is radical. I like it.

[donZappo]

Has the AU ever changed technology prerequisites before or would this be a first time thing? I know that a similar change was presented in the cavalry thread so messing with the prereqs like this could solve a couple of problems if you started doing such things. It would work as a stand-alone save game downloand and be "enhanced" with an additional download if desired.

[Stuie]

Originally posted by Jaybe
I am already labled a heretic regarding the AU for suggesting radical changes, so it doesn't hurt me one twiddly to do it again:

Take out Hoover Dam altogether. The vast majority of the time the player gets it. It only makes the game that much easier.

I'd be more in favor of taking out ToE. Only problem is that removing ToE renders the bottom tech path virtually useless until you reach Electronics (well... you can irrigate tiles next to coast squares with Electricity, but still...).

Solution: Move Longevity to Scientific Method.

Now who's the heretic?

[ZargonX]

I would really like it if we removed Motorized Transportation's Electronics requirement

At first read it seems like a radial suggestion, but the more I re-read your arguments, the more I think you've convinced me This is something that will be ultimately determined by play testing, but I think it is worth a shot.

[ducki]

a) swapping tech costs so that going for Atomic Theory AND Electronics would mean a lot of wasted 'free' research,

As someone that doesn't look that deeply into the numbers, I'd like to say that the research cost means almost nothing to me on the ToE-Hoover Express.

The important thing is the free power plant in _every_ city on the continent - even the hopelessly corrupt ones that would take half an age to build one.

I don't care what it costs me or how many shields I lose on a miscalculated prebuild - I will have Hoover.

Which, IMO, makes Hoover itself overpowered, ToE overpowered, and for a boring player decision(read non-decision) at the beginning of the Industrial.
Nationalism is never researched by me. Ever. The AI will always research it for me, while at the same time giving me time to get a lead on the way to ToE.

If things are going well(Knights and Cavs did their job), I will have a sizeable empire and benefit greatly from Hoover. If things went poorly and I'm still playing catch-up, ToE is indispensable for gaining parity/lead.

The only detour I might take from a ToE beeline would be to get the Universal Suffrage tech so that my (naturally) republic will be able to handle the coming wars without riot.

Uninteresting decision for the player.
Priority-impaired AI.

The "cost" of the techs really doesn't enter into the equation, at least not for me, as a less nuts-and-bolts-analytical type player. I don't know the costs and don't care in this situation. You could decimate the cost to get to Hoover and multiply any other techs by 20 and I'd probably still do the Hoover beeline. It's just that important to me

[Panzer32]

does anyone think the AI puts too much stock in nationalism?

[Arrian]

It does seem that way sometimes, but I recall reading a defense of that phenomenon by nbarclay... and having read it I agree with him. The AI typically faces human mass Cavalry attacks, and nationalism provides a major defensive upgrade for them.

-Arrian

[vmxa1]

The AI is wise to get rifles asap, unless it is a KAI or have the landmass to itself (probably a KAI then).

They also want those MPP and embargo functions. Not to mention the pathway to Commie/Spy techs.

[alexman]

Originally posted by Panzer32
does anyone think the AI puts too much stock in nationalism?

This is slightly off-topic for this thread. I will open a thread about AI research priorities soon.

[MrWhereItsAt]

Even further OT: If only we considered making Nationalism (and Riflemen) a pre-req for Replaceable Parts (and Infantry)......

I think ducki's point is top-notch. I had no idea AT and Elec were that expensive - I get AT with the ToE because it leads to Electronics, and I get Electronics because it gives me the Hoover Dam.

I think some may be on to something with a slight rearrangement of pre-req tech for Hoover, and this is the way to go (unfortunately the one that requires an additional file!)

[Kuciwalker]

I'd be more in favor of taking out ToE. Only problem is that removing ToE renders the bottom tech path virtually useless until you reach Electronics (well... you can irrigate tiles next to coast squares with Electricity, but still...).

off-topic, but IIRC it allows irrigation in ANY tile (that can be irrigated) regardless of water source

[nbarclay]

Electricity, not Electronics, is what grants the ability to irrigate without a lake or river. (Wells with electric pumps, maybe?)

[Buckets]

The problem, as i see it, is not so much that the ai goes first for nationalism, but stops everything to get communism and fascism after. On top of that, electricity and medicine are low priority dampening access to the more valuable techs.

In short, i say try flavours to encourage medicine, electricity, and discourage communism and fascism. Not in such a way as it is a given, but change the percentage chance of researching by say, 50%.