AU208: Total Eternal Forever War - Reports and Comments

[Arrian]

Or a succession game. The intensity of it lends itself to short bursts of play.

-Arrian

[TheArsenal]

I own my continent, I guess that's something ...

I've played this out until (about) 1040AD before stopping the game to give serious consideration as to how to approach this moving forward.

Quick overview. Again, my China-Regent game is at home, so my dates have a little wiggle room.

As noted, up until 220AD (or so) I had decided the best approach was to fortify and hold out defensively against the Iroquois while taking the battle to the Romans. This worked well, if not much slower than I would have liked. I sent swordsmen after the remaining Roman cities - in large teams if I could assemble them - and the Iroquois seemed content to throw away MW by moving one or two outside my northernmost city and letting me throw swordsmen at the stack from inside. Fine with me. The Romans were taken out of the picture around 540AD allowing me to turn full attention to my northwestern neighbors. Taking out the Iroquois was, admittedly, sloppy, extended, business. Inability to stop the war long enough to marshal a good offensive attacking force, I was made to attack with swordsmen teams of two, three and four, all the while under attack themselves. But it worked, and in this game I could see no other way, but it was wasteful.

A few good things went my way during this melee however.
(1) I captured the Oracle from the Iroquois. I was less grateful for the capturing the Wonder, than realizing the AI took a productive city out of the unit producing business to build it.
(2) With horses finally secured, and Chivalry obtained, clean up with Riders made the end of the war much easier.
(3) Finally obtained a GL which was used to Sun Tzu, which IIRC, was the only wonder available to me. I now have two total.

As I stand now, I own the entire continent, the two tile island north, and one tile island (settled earlier), southwest of the continent. When I stopped the game, the English were trolling around with three galleys, the Indians two.

At this point, the two choices (or a mix thereof) seem to me to be either: defend the island only, try to build infrastructure to gain on the tech race and move when I have a proper force on par with the rest of the world technically. I am so far behind in techs that this is probably not feasible.

or: build as many ships and Riders as my economy can stand, and go adventuring. This will be met, inevitably by the powers who have Cavalry, Muskets, and Riflemen.

I will go for the second option, although neither of these choices looks particularly appetizing.

[nbarclay]

I underestimated how much force I'd need to take England. At my peak, I held four English cities, but one of them flipped back to England for at least the second time. Two assaults on London have failed with heavy casualties, thanks mostly to England's Great Wall. England has pikes now, so I think I'll wait until I get cavalry to finish them off.

Worse, because of the war, I've been reluctant to change governments (especially since I'd hoped to finish England and then switch to Republic). It's 840 AD, and I'm only now starting a switch to Monarchy.

The one good thing about the war with England is that I got three leaders out of it. One rushed Sistine, the second Sun Tsu's, and the third built an immortal army. I also got Leo's through a palace prebuild.

Babylon made contact with me in 750 AD, and I found that they'd also sold contact with me to America. Fortunately, no one had met the English yet to learn of my "interesting" approach to trade, so I was able to do another nice round of negotiations. For 160 gpt, I bought Astronomy, Banking, Music Theory, Printing Press, Monarchy, and a world map. I also arranged a "loan" from America: 19 gpt for America's 322 gold and their version of the world map. That left Chivalry as the only tech other civs had that I didn't, and the reason I didn't get that is that I wanted to be able to build horsemen for upgrade to cavalry.

Will I be able to build up a sufficient strike force to upgrade to cavalry and hit America before they get Nationalism? Will I go after America with cavalry anyhow, in spite of their getting Nationalism, on the theory that odds aren't likely to be particularly better later? Stay tuned.

By the way, thanks to my gold reserve, I was actually doing 4- and 5-turn medieval research under Despotism for a while! Unfortunately, my gold reserve is essentially gone by now.

Nathan

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by vulture


Look carefully and you'll notice that the spearman isn't in the army (it is the only one that has its hp and move listed, and doesn't have 'in army')

I figured I was too bleary eyed to see clearly, thanks.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Arrian
So GPT trades were deemed kosher in this one? I think I did one very early on for something like 6gpt, but never since I noticed Catt's comment about it in the other thread.

-Arrian

I am not following this, help me out. What was the comment? What do you mean by trade. I thought we could not reload or make peace, but could make any deals we can at first contact. We have to declare war on the first contact, so we can do some type of deal, but have to end by going to war. Is that not correct?
I did not even bother to build embassies, since I can not have peace or trade (other than first contact).
You can't make any trade while at war anyway, unless it is part of a peace settlement.
Am I following rules or am I missing something again?

[TheArsenal]

I think what is being discussed is - upon first meeting - the practice of offering a certain amount of gpt to obtain techs/maps then declaring war.

[Nor Me]

I've seen Always War rules with no gpt allowed. But it's not in the spirit of AU to ban exploits. So we're playing under fairly liberal rules: war by the end of your first turn after meeting them and no peace.

When I met one of the other 4 civs, I traded contacts, maps, techs and gpt between them for the one turn. Even though I met Babylon first, I ended up trading them Chemistry which I'd got off another civ.

Of course I regularly start peace negotiations to find out what tech the AI has.

[Dominae]

Different people seem to have interpreted the "no peace" clause differently, even though it is clearly stated in the scenario description by alexman.

I myself did not know I could trade techs around freely during the turn of first contact, as long as the turn ended in declarations of war. This may have netted me a tech or two extra, as I refused to trade Contacts until I was good and ready to have everyone on my back. However, I did take liberties to use the "gpt exploit", just because it's so fun considering the nature of this game ("Sure, we'll give you all our income in exchange for your maps, heh-heh").

Whatever, this is all in good fun. Most people are starting over multiples times anyway, so this should give everyone a good chance to follow the "official rules".


Dominae

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Dominae
However, I did take liberties to use the "gpt exploit", just because it's so fun considering the nature of this game ("Sure, we'll give you all our income in exchange for your maps, heh-heh").
Dominae

By this do you mean the idea that they give you something in return for so much gold per turn, when in fact you are going to delcare war and not pay?
I figured it was not allowed so I did not do it, wish I knew I could have.
I doubt it would have saved me anyway. I expect to get back to the game tonight and have my lights turn off.
I am somewhere around the late 1300's and have been attacked by Calvs and the Americans will soon find me, I expect that to be the end, if they want it to be.
I wonder what others see as the best Civ to try to pull this off as?

[Dominae]

Originally posted by vmxa1
By this do you mean the idea that they give you something in return for so much gold per turn, when in fact you are going to delcare war and not pay?

Correct. I did this myself. What I do not know we could do is trade techs and Gold around in one big turn, declaring war on everybody at the end. Depending on the different levels of technology of the civs, this could turn out to be very profitable. In my game, I doubt I could have pulled something interesting with this trick, as most of the overseas civs (apart from the English) have been "in bed" the entire game.

I am somewhere around the late 1300's and have been attacked by Calvs and the Americans will soon find me, I expect that to be the end, if they want it to be.

The AI has a hard time finishing the human player off, especially when it comes to overseas invasions. I suspect you'll quit long before the AI defeats you, which is a smart thing to do because who wants to play a truly hopeless game? In my game (still the first one), I can still see some hope, so I'm trudging along. I've lost all the Industrial age Wonders (yes, that one too...), but I still think I can compete. We'll see.

I wonder what others see as the best Civ to try to pull this off as?

With knowledge of the map, I think it is clear that a civ with a non-Ancient UU is preferred, simply because you'll need your GA to keep you alive once you contact the overseas civs and the real tech race begins. China therefore seems to be a very good choice for this reason, in addition to its other advantages. The Ottomans should also be good: Persia's traits without the disadvantage of an early GA, and, if timed right, a Sipahi offensive against India or America (probably the former) that could very well get the ball rolling towards victory.


Dominae

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Dominae


Correct. I did this myself. What I do not know we could do is trade techs and Gold around in one big turn, declaring war on everybody at the end. Depending on the different levels of technology of the civs, this could turn out to be very profitable. In my game, I doubt I could have pulled something interesting with this trick, as most of the overseas civs (apart from the English) have been "in bed" the entire game.

Keep in mind that while we can make a killing buying techs with gpt, selling them for gpt is worthless. That greatly limits the ability to make additional profit selling to backward civs.

[Dominae]

True, Nathan. By "profitable", I meant in terms of techs and lump sums. You need to catch the AIs at a time where they're not all too far ahead, and that there are some techs "missing" between them. I'm not sure if this happens very often, but (like I said) on average you could net a tech or two, or perhaps a few hundred Gold. That's nothing to scoff at in a tough game like this.


Dominae


P.S: Two pointers:

1. Like Nathan said, never ask for gpt from an AI (I almost did this)!

2. Do not go into Mobilization until you're sure it's the right thing to do (think about it...).

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Dominae

With knowledge of the map, I think it is clear that a civ with a non-Ancient UU is preferred, simply because you'll need your GA to keep you alive once you contact the overseas civs and the real tech race begins. China therefore seems to be a very good choice for this reason, in addition to its other advantages. The Ottomans should also be good: Persia's traits without the disadvantage of an early GA, and, if timed right, a Sipahi offensive against India or America (probably the former) that could very well get the ball rolling towards victory.

Certainly, a medieval GA is far more valuable in absolute terms. On the other hand, a good ancient UU and accompanying GA can help conquer the enemy more quickly and cheaply so you can move on to other things sooner - especially if you don't do so hot with an early archer rush. Having more and better-developed cities earlier can produce an effect that, while perhaps not as great as a GA at any one time, lasts a way whole lot longer.

The reason China has so much potential in a game like this has less to do with its later GA than with the fact that it's a fantastic archer rush civ. If China can do enough damage with archers, it gets almost the same benefit as if it had an early UU. But if not, China doesn't get nearly as much bang for the shield on a sustained basis as Persia can (assuming it can obtain iron).

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Dominae

2. Do not go into Mobilization until you're sure it's the right thing to do (think about it...).

Keep in mind that killing off an AI counts as ending the war for demobilization purposes. The possibility of settlers on boats or on unmapped islands presents a little bit of a wild card, but mobilizing with the clear expectation of finishing a civ off completely is a viable option. Indeed, it would even be possible to delay a civ's final demise in order to stay mobilized a little longer.

Nathan

[Dominae]

Originally posted by nbarclay
Certainly, a medieval GA is far more valuable in absolute terms. On the other hand, a good ancient UU and accompanying GA can help conquer the enemy more quickly and cheaply so you can move on to other things sooner - especially if you don't do so hot with an early archer rush. Having more and better-developed cities earlier can produce an effect that, while perhaps not as great as a GA at any one time, lasts a way whole lot longer.

How far are you in the scenario, Nathan? I'm halfway through the Industrial, and I can safely say that the latter part of the game is a much tougher challenge than securing the home continent. I'm guessing this will be true of other people's games as well, although I could be wrong.

The reason China has so much potential in a game like this has less to do with its later GA than with the fact that it's a fantastic archer rush civ. If China can do enough damage with archers, it gets almost the same benefit as if it had an early UU. But if not, China doesn't get nearly as much bang for the shield on a sustained basis as Persia can (assuming it can obtain iron).

True. But, given knowledge of the map, I still believe the Ottomans to be superior in this scenario. Securing the home continent is important, sure, but getting a foothold on the other continents (beyond England) is equally important, and probably more difficult because the AIs would certainly pull ahead of you in tech eventually (how do you get them to go to war with one another before Espionage?).


Dominae