Early Landing Comparison Game #2

[SlowThinker]

Zenon,
Already 8th city causes unhappiness under republic - it is an extra unhappiness caused by the size of the SSC. Unfortunately I don't know the exact mechanism of this phenomenon

[rjmatsleepers]

I have replayed the start of this game about a dozen times and my admiration for Solo's effort has grown each time. I have not managed to get close to reaching the Republic in 1850 BC. The best I can do is 1650 BC. I calculate I've got to find about 40 additional beakers over the first 42 turns and I've no idea where they are going to come from. I look forward to seeing Solo's launch save .

RJM at Sleepers

[solo]

RJM,

1850 BC was possible for Republic because I made contact with the Spanish while studying Ceremonial Burial. The Spanish had this tech already, and I traded for it, allowing me to transfer shields accumulated towards CB towards the next research choice, Literacy. Without that trade, Republic would have taken longer.

I have finished typing up the log of my game, so will post it now, along with a save made the turn before landing.

Early Landing Comparison Game #2

BC years

3950 Zimbabwe
3800 Ulundi

Zimbabwe was located with access to three specials, and Ulundi turned out to be the SSC site, after my warrior revealed it had 2 silk, a wheat and a whale. Although it did not have any poor terrain, Ulundi needed a lot of lumberjacking to turn its regular forests into trade producing plains. Near the bottom of the map, it is sure to be at a good distance from most trading partners enabling good delivery payoffs. Emphasis will be on working trade tiles such as silk until Republic is discovered.

3150 Alphabet, Zim – warrior

This first warrior was sent exploring continent #1, which is probably a big one with several other AI.

3450 Code of Laws, Zim – warrior
3250 Zim – warrior
3050 Ulu – settlers, Writing
2900 Bapedi

Bapedi was to the west of Ulundi, with the idea that it might become a station city as well as a helper, but due to distance and the 0 meridian, the AI road and rail bonuses did not become available during this game.

2800 Zim – settlers
2650 Bap – warrior
2600 contact Spanish - peace, trade for Ceremonial Burial, they also have Map Making, Bronze Working and Masonry, all good techs I can trade for later.

Since I was researching Ceremonial Burial at this time, this saved a few turns of research allowing Republic a few turns earlier than expected.

2500 Hlobane

I went north until I found a port with a whale for more early trade and shields. Hlobane had 3 other specials, a fish, a silk and a pheasant, a great site.

2450 Literacy
2350 Ulu – temple
2000 Ulu – diplomat
1850 Republic, switch made
1800 Bap – temple, Zim – temple, barb attack, archer bribed for 61 gold, contact Sioux, peace, trade for Bronze Working, give tech, they have Horseback Riding and Pottery

Bribing that barb archer used up most of my emergency bribing fund, but I had to do this in order to keep my capital safe. His partner did not come with a leader, so I was back to almost zero gold. This meant the archer had to be supported to protect Ulundi until more gold was in the till. Later in the game, I was hoping that the barbs might capture Bapedi, so that I could set it up for the AI road and rail trade route bonuses, but the AI are like the cops, never around when you want them.

1750 Hlo – settlers
1600 Mysticism, Isandlhwana, Spanish - trade for Map Making, share maps, (utterly useless) alliance; Sioux – give tech, share maps, they are my key civ

Isandlhwana was just south of Hlobane and shared its pheasant and fish specials.

1500 Ulu – trireme

The dumb mistake, since the exploring warrior had been homed to Ulu, too. I disbanded that warrior, rather than deal with extra unhappiness, since I wanted the trireme assigned to my SSC later on during Democracy. Losing that explorer resulted in a big delay in meeting the Germans and Chinese, but I figured any useful techs they had might be traded to the civs I did know. Had I not met my key civ yet, I would probably have continued by building Marco Polo’s as my first wonder. The diplomat I kept sending west after this kept being expelled when trying to get past the Spanish to reach the Germans and the Chinese. Later on, I noticed how wide continent #1 was and ended up making contact with the Chinese by coming at them from the other direction.

1300 Currency
1200 Hlo – temple, Bap – trireme, contact Carthaginians - peace, give tech, share maps

It did not take long to find my best trading partner of the game, since they were on the part of continent #2 that was closest to me.

1050 Isa – temple, Zim – settlers
1000 Trade
900 Ulu – library, Intombe

Intombe was east of Isandlhwana and had two whales as specials. This game I’m focusing on science first, with a library in the SSC before a marketplace. I plan on earlier science wonders there, too.

850 Celts contact me – trade for Masonry, give tech, share maps; Hlo – beads, Bap – settlers

825 Banking
750 Zim – dye, Isa – hides
700 Ulu – silk
675 Mathematics, beads(d) Cardiff, 176g
650 Int – temple
625 Isa – settlers, Hlo – silver, Astronomy, dye(d) to Utica, 128g

These early payoffs are boosting research while providing gold to speed up builds of more commodity caravans.

525 Philosophy, University, hides to Utica, 104g
500 Hlo – settlers, Ulu – copper, Zim – copper, Celts announce they have Construction
475 Bap –dye
450 Ulu – marketplace, we love begins in Ulundi, silver(d) to Utica, 150g; Spanish – trade for Pottery, spurned for sniveling, alliance dissolved

I hated to have to make this trade for Pottery, since I can usually count on one of the AI for Seafaring, which I needed for Ulundi’s harbor. Later in the game, my SSC and other cities were supplying salt because I had Pottery.

425 Medicine
400 Int – beads, Ulu – hides, silk(d) to Carthage, 373g
375 Isa – dye, Ulu – salt, we love stops at size 7
350 Hlo – dye, Bap – wool, Ulu – hides, Zim – gems, Celts – trade for Construction; Sioux, give tech, share maps

325 Seafaring, Ulu – Shakespeare’s Theater
300 Ulu – we love resumes, copper(d) to Utica, 280g
275 Ulu – aqueduct
250 Mpondo, Ulu – size 8

Mpondo was the first colony and was located a bit northwest of the Celtic cities, and it had a fish, a silk, and a pheasant as specials. I planned the other colonies to be next to it, and finding the best place for colonies in this game was not very obvious, since the Celts and Carthaginians cities were not going to continue as great trading partners in the second half of the game when commodities changed. Since the SSC would also lack 3 roaded and railed routes to an AI city, I decided to place colonies at the end of the map for bigger payoffs to help make up for the lack of matching demands I was expecting later. The only good thing about having Pottery was that I was able to delay starting colonies a bit longer than usual, since granaries could be built to speed their growth to size 3.

225 Int – hides, Isa – dye, Carthaginians – give tech, share maps
175 Hlo – hides, Theory of Gravity, Zim – beads, copper(d) to Carmarthen, 384g
150 Bap – wool, Ulu – hides, size 12, Sioux – give tech, share maps
125 Ulu – Copernicus’s Observatory, Economics, dye(d) to Carthage, 256g

Usually I precede Copernicus with the Colossus, but I wanted to speed up my research earlier in this game. Now I felt I had to research Warrior Code and I count this event as the low point in my early landing career, since it was the first game I can remember when I was not able to get Iron Working by trade from one of the AI, which normally allows the postponement of Warrior Code.

75 Ulu – university

The rushed university kept the priority on science although this used up all the available gold. Finances were tight for the next few turns.

50 Warrior Code, Celts announce they have Engineering, trade for Engineering, share maps

AD years

20 Int – beads, Hlo – dye, Ulu – hides
40 Spanish – give tech, share maps, Iron Working, salt(d) to Carthage, 486g
60 Mpo – settlers, Isa – dye, Ulu – gold, Zim – gems
80 Bap – gems, Ulu – we love begins, Sanitation
100 Ulu- sewer system
140 hides(d) to Utica, 84g, Ngome

Ngome was the second colony founded a bit north of the first.

160 Int – hides, Hlo – salt, Bap – salt, Ulu – food, Zim – cloth
180 Ulu – Isaac Newton’s College, Bridge Building, Carthaginians – give tech, share maps, hides(d) to Utica, 502g

200 Ngo – temple, Mpo – diplomat, Isa – beads, Hlo – dye, Ulu – copper, Chemistry
220 Sioux – give tech, share maps, Ulu – gems, contact Germans – give tech, peace, share maps

240 Germans expel my diplomat, dye(d) to Caralis, 128g
260 Celts announce they have Polytheism, Ngo – settlers, Invention, Ulu – size 21, we love ends

280 Mpo – temple, Int – beads, Ulu – Colossus

All SSC wonders are now in place, and all it needs are a bank and stock exchange. By swapping SSC priorities to science before economics, I gained a lead of about 7 techs when comparing this game to the last one, but was hurting more for gold. Even though most SSC improvements have been built, work on its terrain is a bit behind schedule, so it is a race to Explosives instead of the usual choice of Democracy as the next research priority.

300 Gunpowder
320 Hlo – salt, dye(d) to Utica, 96g
340 Ulu – courthouse, Explosives, Zim – cloth, copper(d) to Malaca, 400g
360 Mpo – harbor, Int – Engineers, Isa – wool, Hlo – engineers, Bap – gems, Democracy, Swazi, gems(d) to Malaca, 600g, Carthaginians – give tech, share maps

The switch to Democracy had to wait for the second trireme to be rehomed to Ulundi, the SSC. This was not a problem, since city science was about 200 beakers short of 1 turn advances, anyways. This was mostly due to the lack of an AI road bonus for the SSC trade routes. Swazi was the third and final colony, built to provide easy access to the two largest Celt cities neighboring my first two colonies.

380 Ngo – granary, Ulu – engineers, Navigation, Zim – engineers, gold(d) to Malaca, 600g

This game required more engineers than usual due to the huge amount of work needed in the SSC. All forests had to be converted to plains, and then roaded and irrigated. The two silk were converted to wheat and irrigated to increase the maximum SSC size from 22 up to 27. Originally, I had planned to add farmland, too, but there was not enough time to accomplish this, too.

400 Swa – temple, Ulu – bank, Metallurgy, Celts & Sioux – give tech, share maps
420 Zim – harbor
440 Swa – granary, Ulu – wine, Physics, revolution
460 Isa – beads, Ulu – spice, government to Democracy
500 Isa – silver, Ulu – gems, Steam Engine
520 wool(d) to Mpondo, 60g
540 Bap – wool, Ulu – food, Railroad, Zim – silver
560 Int – harbor, Ulu – Darwin’s Voyage, Industrialization, Magnetism, Sioux – give tech, share maps

Now freights would become available on the next turn. Unfortunately, it was difficult getting many matches for supplies and demands during the second half of the game. Cities that were demanding goods produced were usually well inland and not worth the delay it would take to deliver to them. The demand for the commodities being produced by the SSC was very low, too, and a lot of the time it was making salt and beads. This lack of demand and of quality commodities slowed things down, since less income than usual delayed the rush buying of superhighways and scientific improvements in the helpers and colonies. This limited the number of chances for earning two techs per turn. The best was made of this situation by locating colonies far from home and by trading more with them than with the AI.

580 The Corporation
600 Swa – harbor, Ngo – harbor, Mpo – silk, Ulu – gold, wine(d) to Utica, 367g
620 Electricity, Ulu – stock exchange, we love begins for all cities
640 Refining, silver(d) to Carmarthen, 154g, gems(d) to Carmarthen, 708g, Sioux – give tech, share maps

660 Int – colosseum, Isa – harbor, Hlo – colosseum, Bap – harbor, Ulu – cloth, Steel, Zim – colosseum, spice(d) to Swazi, 340g

680 Ngo – coloseeum, Ulu – wine, Carthaginians – give tech, share maps, gold(d) to Malaca, 666g

700 Combustion, Mpo – colosseum, Ulu – temple, Zim – engineers, Hlo – transport, Isa – transport

720 Ulu – gold, silk(d) to Ulu, 554g
740 Swa – colosseum, Automobile, Mpo – transport, Int – transport, gold(d) to Malaca, 666g, we love ends for helpers and colonies

760 Isa – colosseum, Bap – colosseum, Ulu – superhighways, Electronics, wine(d) to Ngome, 832g

780 Swa – wine, Ngo – silk, Mpo – superhighways, Hlo – silver, Ulu – beads, Atomic Theory

800 Carthaginians announce they have Conscription, Bap – superhighways, Ulu – wine, size 27, we love ends, Mass Production, Zim – cloth, beads(d) to Leptis Parva, 708g

820 Int – oil, Isa – superhighways, Hlo – courthouse, Ulu – mass transit, Nuclear Fission, wine(d) to Bapedi, 397g, Sioux, give tech, share maps; contact Chinese – they demand gold, war

By this time the SSC was at full size and engineers had just completed converting all of its wheat into silk for maximum trade. The Chinese were finally contacted after several aborted attempts to get beyond other civs with my diplomat. This lack of contact had probably cost me time researching some techs earlier in the game. Without the knowledge of Chinese cities it was more difficult keeping track of city cycle turns, also. In a few instances, this lack of information kept me from delivering some cargos in time for the demand bonuses, since some city cycle turns were only my best estimates.

840 Ngo – superhighways, Ulu – cloth, Nuclear Power, Spanish & Germans – give tech, share maps, cloth(d) to Mpondo, 901g, wine to Carmarthen, 722g

860 Swa – superhighways, Mpo – dye, Int – hides, Isa – dye, Hlo – library, Bap – gold, Ulu – food, Laser, Zim – superhighways, Chinese – give tech, peace, trade for Feudalism, share maps; Celts – trade for Horseback Riding, share maps; Sioux – give tech, share maps; cloth(d) Mpondo, 544g, hides to Ulundi, 88g, dye(d) to Cardiff, 330g, silk(d) to Zimbabwe, 712g, Tugela

This was a busy turn, and the fact that the Chinese had Feudalism just confirmed to me that if I had made contact earlier in the game, I probably would have been able to acquire Iron Working and Bridge Building from them through trades, too. The trade for Horseback Riding was carefully timed to enable the selection of Chivalry followed by Leadership on the next turn, the first turn of only two in the game that I managed to earn two techs. Tugela was founded and used to trigger the first tech.

880 Tug – gems, Chivalry, Swa – library, Ngo – dye, Mpo – library, Int – dye, Isa – library, Hlo – university, Bap – lib, Ulu – dye, Zim – gems, Leadership, Carthaginians – trade for Conscription, oil(d) to Ngome, 444g, dye(d) to Armagh, 1026g, dye(d) to Utica, 124g

900 Tactics, Ngo – library, Mpo – university, Isa – university, Ulu – beads, Flight, Chinese – give tech share maps, gems(d) to Armagh, 348g, dye to Ulu, 275g, silver(d) to Cardiff, 195g

I chose Flight because my city science could no longer keep up with mounting tech costs. For the rest of the game, I would use freights to supplement city science each turn to guarantee an advance per turn. Since most of the remaining trade was to be between the colonies and home cities, I wanted to build some airports to boost payments and for making the last few shipments while transports headed to ports to be disbanded for space ship parts. Another reason for choosing Flight now was that fewer tech trades would have to be made to get research lists with techs along the path to Space Flight. No off path techs had to be learned for the rest of the game by doing it this way. This saved a few turns of research.

920 Tug – dye, Swa – dye, Int – salt, Hlo – salt, Bap - food, Ulu – salt, Zim – silver, Machine Tools, gold(d) to Malaca, 294g, salt to Swazi, 280g, dye to Ulu, 300g

940 Ngo – silk, Mpo – hides, Isa – beads, Ulu – salt, Radio, salt to Ngome, 85g, silk(d) to Zimbabwe, 475g, dye to Ulu, 280g

960 Tug – salt, Swa – food, Mpo – airport, Int – oil, Hlo – food, Bap – spice, Ulu – airport, Zim – gems, Miniaturization, salt to Mpondo, 412g, hides to Ulundi, 412g

980 Ngo – hides, Int – airport, Isa – food, Ulu – wine, Computers, silver(d) to Panoramus, 345g, beads to Cartenna, 262g, oil(d) to Mpondo, 459g, wine(d) to Int, 160g

1000 Tug – food, Swa – food, Mpo – dye, Int – superhighways, Hlo – food, Bap – food, Ulu – salt, Advanced Flight, Zim – food, salt to Mpondo, 374g, hides to Ulundi, 300g

1020 Ngo – airport, Int – oil, Isa – food, Ulu – salt, Rocketry, oil(d) to Mpondo, 560g, salt to Mpondo, 412g, gems to Ulundi, 70g, All AI – give tech, share maps

1040 Tug – beads, Swa – food, Ngo – silk, Mpo – hides, Hlo – food, Ulu – wine, Zim – food, Space Flight, share maps, gems(d) to Armagh, 348g, hides to Intombe, 70g, hides to Ulundi, 412g

1060 Tug – Apollo Program, Ngo – silk, Int – oil, Isa – salt, Bap – food, Zim – silver, Plastics, silver(d) to Armagh, 290g, wine(d) to Ngome, 450g, Sioux – trade for The Wheel, give tech, share maps

1080 Tug – SS structural, Swa – food, Mpo – hides, Ngo – SS component, Int – SS structural, Isa - SS structural, Hlo – food, Ulu – food, Zim – SS structural, Superconductor, oil(d) to Mpondo, 560g, silk(d) to Zimbabwe, 475g, dye to Ulundi, 412g

1100 Tug – SS module, Swa – SS component, Mpo- SS structural, Hlo – SS structural, Bap – spice, Zim – SS structural, salt to Ngome, 436g, beads to Ulundi, 275g, Umtata

Umtata was added as a space ship contractor to finish an extra component for next turn’s launch.

1120 Umtata – SS component, Tug – SS module, Swa - SS structural, Fusion Power, Ngo – SS structural, Mpo – SS structural, Int – SS structural, Isa – SS structural, Hlo – SS structural, Bap – SS structural, Ulu – SS structural, pollution due to selling mass transit, Zim – SS component, a little over 100g left, 15-2-2-1-1-1 launch

1141 Arrival Alpha Centauri after 21 turns of boredom.

[ottok]

1120 Umtata – SS component, Tug – SS module, Swa - SS structural, Fusion Power, Ngo – SS structural, Mpo – SS structural, Int – SS structural, Isa – SS structural, Hlo – SS structural, Bap – SS structural, Ulu – SS structural, pollution due to selling mass transit, Zim – SS component, a little over 100g left, 15-2-2-1-1-1 launch

1141 Arrival Alpha Centauri after 21 turns of boredom.

help!
wich level?

[solo]

ottok,

deity level, but keep this just between you and me.

[SlowThinker]

I thought we all play Deity+5 ??

[rjmatsleepers]

Solo - that is a lean empire. Nothing irrigated except in your SSC. I don't remember you mentioning this before. Is it a standard strategy that I have missed or did you come up with it for this game?

RJM at Sleepers

[SCG]

in one of his early EL games, he mentioned that he favored sites with specials, forest, and ability to use harbors in lieu of terrain development for his helper cities and looks for those when he founds his helper cities

[solo]

Right SCG, I look for helper and colony sites that will support a settler under Republic without having to irrigate. Any time that precious time can be saved by doing things like this helps shorten a game. If fewer settlers and engineers are needed, more caravans and freights can be built sooner. About all I do to improve helpers is connect them with roads, but even this may happen only after priorities in the SSC are taken care of.

I have received a request to play one of our future games on a large map, so would like to poll active players in an informal way, to see if the majority are agreeable to this. So I'd appreciate it if active players would let me know of your opinions about using a large map in your next posts.

[Elephant]

Progress report from the Lumbering (in more ways than one) Elephant:

Nearing 1AD now...

Monarchy: 1900BC (discover on OEDO turn)
Republic: discovered 775BC, installed 325BC (delayed to keep smaller cities building caravans under Monarchy, and the tribute option)

Marco Polo: 900BC
Shakespeare: 300BC

Playing lean & nice (as opposed to "mean"). I have 7 cities, 21 techs, with 5 more available but trying to skip. I got Construction, Wheel and Math from trades without having to do Masonry and Horse; unfortunately I had to take Pottery to work on Seafaring as my AI "tech slave" is taking too long. I am WLTCDing the SSC now, trying to make caravans in shield-starved Republic. I have full maps & intel of every other civ; they are all Enthusiastic, occasionally Worshipful (trying not to let this go to my head), but only one is Allied. Cannot push the alliance, though, cause I am more likely to get unwanted techs than gold. Looking for a good site for an offshore colony right now for my 8th city, but still have a fair amount of lumber to cut ASAP. Also trying to put a road in to the Spanish to see if I can get the trade route bonus. Major Barb attacks 2850BC, 1600BC,925BC, and 500BC. The Celts got Medicine from a hut just as I was about to finish the research; could have saved a whole research round if it had been one turn earlier. Sigh...

Tech slaving works somewhat, particularly if you get the MPE early enough and have decent civilized civs like the Germans and Chinese. Once you get above about 15 techs their research slows down so much you might as well do it yourself. I have gotten 9 of my 21 techs by trade, including key ones like Construction, Wheel and Math that allow me to punt their prerequisites. I tried tech-bombing one civ so that another would finish faster (dumped on the Sioux to help the Celts get Construction); I think it helped a bit but not sure.

Now to read up on how to plant a city that makes lots of Silk...

[Scouse Gits]

Originally posted by solo
I have received a request to play one of our future games on a large map, so would like to poll active players in an informal way, to see if the majority are agreeable to this. So I'd appreciate it if active players would let me know of your opinions about using a large map in your next posts.

T'was I that made the suggestion.

I want to compare different strategies. Some of the players here have been experimenting with MPE which is an interesting tactic ... though one which I don't use on a Medium World. On a large map, especially if the purple civ was not in easy exploring range, the wonder could be essential to keep the science rate from being penalised.

So I vote we try one game on a Large World.

-------------

SG(2)

[Elephant]

Although I am fond of Marco Polo, I feel that our "comparison" wont be the same when the map size is enlarged. SG is right that other strategies will emerge, diluting the Early Landing focus.

In hindsight, I would say that simply terrain made a significant difference between ELCG 1 and 2. In #1 hills were more dominant, and only one other civ was on our continent. In #2 forests are the rule, the continent is much bigger and includes 5 civs. Rivers helped in #1; they are nowhere nearby in #2.

I move we stay with Normal for the next one or two, then consider a Large. I'm still experimenting with EL strategies.

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by solo

I have received a request to play one of our future games on a large map, so would like to poll active players in an informal way, to see if the majority are agreeable to this. So I'd appreciate it if active players would let me know of your opinions about using a large map in your next posts.

If we are talking about the 75 x 120 option, I'm happy to go along with that. If we are talking about some sort of giga map, do they work OK with 2.42?

RJM at Sleepers

[SlowThinker]

Elephant,
About MPE... How much did you get from tributes? I got 550g up to 800BC (from every civ on continent #1). I built a city on continent #2 but neither Celts nor Carthaginians want to pay... (Although I have a Warrior on that continent) I don't understand what is the difference... Maybe the presence of capital?

Edit: I forgot to say I play also a monarchy start followed by Trade and MPE .

About a large map: I will finish this game later than other players the next one, so the question don't concern my person...

A note:
Solo, I think you should repeat the rules in the beginning of every game, or to add a link to the game #1...

[solo]

RJM,

Yes, we are talking about the large maps generated by the game, not giga maps. I have played 2.42 games using giga maps, so know they work.

ST,

That's a good point, and I will repeat the rules at the beginning of each game from now on, since newcomers may not be aware of the prohibition against tipping huts.

Elephant,

You are doing very well so far in your game and have proven how helpful MPE can be in the early going. Perhaps it has given you enough of a boost to land the earliest in this game.