Partisans

[SlowThinker]

Welcome, Starlifter!

Originally posted by starlifter
ST or GP, Is it possible to provide a link to that discussion? I would like to read it.

Partisans emerging after bribing a city

Starlifter, how did you get these facts about needed techs? In other words, how much can we trust you ?

[SlowThinker]

Test results

Originally posted by GP
slow do you finally agree that communism lets loose the evil of partisans.

GP, you pushed me to testing:
I think 4 techs affect partisans: Guerilla, Communism, Gunpowder and Conscription. Both starlifter and thoddy have probably errors in their results.

I will define the term city level:
city size 4-11: level 1
city size 12-19: level 2
city size 20-27: level 3
etc.

shortcuts from rules.txt:
Communism=Cmn, Conscription=Csc, Guerrilla Warfare=Gue, Gunpowder=Gun

My test:
MGE, cheat mode, city of level 6 (size 44), both civs under monarchy
attacker has no tech (i.e. I didn't test the effect of attacker's techs)
defender's techs, number of partisans:
Csc=0 Gun=0 Cmn=0 Gue=10
Cmn+Csc=0 Csc+Gun=0 Cmn+Gun=5 Gue+Cmn=10 Gue+Csc=12 Gue+Gun=10
Cmn+Gun+Csc=6 Gue+Cmn+Gun=10 Gue+Gun+Csc=12 Gue+Cmn+Csc=12
Gue+Cmn+Gun+Csc=12

Using words:
Gue is the main tech: Gue alone gives 10, if you add Csc you get full number (12).
without Gue: Cmn+Gun=5, Cmn+Gun+Csc=6

edited: monarchy added

[SlowThinker]

A note: The conquered tech counts (they can affect the number of partisans)! (partisans appear after the attacker chooses a defender's tech).

Originally posted by Thoddy
defensive terrain has the only effect where the emerging partisans were placed .
first partisan to the best devensive terrain and so on.
There is a special pattern of setting the Partisans you can see, if all terrain is the same.

That pattern is equal to the pattern of barbs coming from huts and to the pattern of working squares around cities by AI (BTW-this is an useful information for the sea squares: if the AI gets here first then a boat won't claim the square for you).

[SlowThinker]

more testing

I continued the test:

As far as attacker's techs are concerned: only Guerilla Warfare affects (lowers) the number of partisans.

numbers of partisans: attacker has no tech/ attacker has Gue
Gue=10/6
Cmn+Gun=5/5 Cmn+Gun+Csc=6/6
Gue+Cmn=10/6 Gue+Gun=10/6 Gue+Csc=12/7

[TCO]

Originally posted by Starlifter
by GP:

GP, are you saying that it is only Communism that unleashes Partisans? And nothing else?

ST or GP, Is it possible to provide a link to that discussion? I would like to read it.




A couple observations:

A. Communism is not necessary to produce Partisans.

B. You can have Communism, and not produce Partisans.




The key is the combination of 3 techs:

1. Gunpowder
2. Communism
3. Guerilla warfare

1+2 = Partisans
3 alone = Partisans

1 alone = No Partisans!
2 alone = No Partisans!

In words, anytime civ possess Guerilla Warfare, the civ's captured cities can spew Partisans.

If you have Communism, but No Gunpowder and No Guerilla Warfare, then no Partisans emerge.


So Communism alone will not unleash the evils of Partisans .

But Communism alone is not too common, however... most people discover Gunpowder by then, but it is not necessary to do so. Of course, to have neither Gunpowder nor Communism yet possess GW means you need outside help, like stealing a tech, capturing or trading a tech, or a preset game.

This also means Thoddy's equation, while valid in one context, is only a partial solution to the final Partisan issue.

PS, Nice work, Thoddy! My only work on this was for size 13 and below a couple years ago, with a manual table and no formula.... brute force testing, LOL!

Very interesting. I did not realize that it worked this way. In had thought it was just 2 that mattered. Did not realize it was this complex. For practical purposes, 2 will usually mean 1 already. And 3 will usually mean 2 already.

[TCO]

slow, the manual says that Gue increases the amount of partisans. It is evident from your testing that the onset of partisans derives from getting communism. (given that GP is already there...which it almost always will be.) So for practical purposes (i.e. well over 50% of gameplay times) you will see partisans after communism and before Gue.

[TCO]

Hey C-141 boy! I thought you were scared of the hurly burly over here.

[SlowThinker]

Originally posted by SlowThinker
starlifter ...have probably errors in their results

I take this back, starlifter is right. My results don't go against starlifter's ones.

But...in some situations starlifter's partisan may be "rounded" to 0. For example Cmn+Gun might give 0 after rounding, but Cmn+Gun+Csc might give 1.
In other words, starlifter's conclusion is always correct "theoretically" (before rounding, or with large cities), but it may be "wrong" in reality (after rounding with small cities).

[Starlifter]

Hey C-141 boy! I thought you were scared of the hurly burly over here

No, it's a matter of being able to connect to the Apolyton site. From 2 ISP's I've had here in Seattle, it is almost impossible to use Apolyton. Slow Thinker helped me contact MarkG a couple weeks ago, and I showed him my network trace results.... MarkG says it's a bad DNS that does not have the correct Apolyton DN to Dot Address data, which means no connection will occur. So now he sent me a dot address that I type in by hand. It works about 70% of the time, but is very very very slow.... 3 to 5 minutes for a single page to come up is typical. And many times, my post never makes it to Apolyton... Two so far today have not made it into this thread, as I now see. Its a 50-50 shot for this one too, I suppose.


To ST: It is easy to test the Gunpowder/Communism/GW relationship in cheat mode, as I'm sure you are or will do. I was unable to get Conscription to affect it, but it really made common sense that it should the way I was thinking of it. But Conscription + Communism = No Partisan Emergence.

By using Cheat to give all techs, then just removing GW, Comm, and Gunpowder, you can definitively eliminate other tech combinations with Communism.... which is one way I eliminated what were to me the most logial choices (e.g., Consc & Tactics).

[Scouse Gits]

However, we have a number of cases where the cheat menu had given results not verifyable in actual game play - so what exactly have you proved?

The SGs lubricated

[debeest]

Still, lacking information to the contrary, I'm ready to accept SlowThinker's results. Good work! May I suggest a post that summarizes this (pretty much as you've already done) for a GL link?

[SlowThinker]

Concurrent formula

My concurrent-formula (without the effect of attacker's Guerilla Warfare):

CityLevel = RoundDown[(CitySize+4)/8]

PreqType: prerequisite type
There are two situations when partisans arise:
defender has Guerilla Warfare: then PreqType=2
defender has Gunpowder+Communism: then PreqType=1

CscModifier: Conscription modifier
defender has not Conscription: then CscModifier=-1
defender has Conscription: then CscModifier=0

govindexD- form of government defender index value
govindexA- form of government attacker index value
Index Values
Anarchy=1,Desp=2, Mon=3, Com=4, Fund=5, Rep =6, Dem=7

The formula:
Partisans = [CityLevel*(1 + 1/2*abs(govindexD-govindexA)) + CscModifier] * PreqType
(the result is rounded down)

A note: The max. number of partisans is 20 (if no sea square is in the city "radius") - i.e. only one partisan may arise on one square.

**********************************************

Originally posted by SGs
However, we have a number of cases where the cheat menu had given results not verifyable in actual game play - so what exactly have you proved?
The SGs lubricated

Please check the formula out when you will be less lubricated.

[SlowThinker]

Originally posted by GP
So for practical purposes (i.e. well over 50% of gameplay times) you will see partisans after communism and before Gue.

For practical purposes you can play a russian roulette with 2 projectiles from 5 with no danger.

[TCO]

Well...I appreciate your establishing the definitve relationship...but still feel vindicated in our earlier disagreement.

[Starlifter]

by SG:

However, we have a number of cases where the cheat menu had given results not verifyable in actual game play - so what exactly have you proved? a

I assume that is for me, since it followed my post.

The actual observation began with a real game, because at the time I assumed Communism was enough to give partisans.

I think this is Brian/Sid's logic: If you reach communism, but your civ does not have gunpowder, then why should your civ's captured cities produce Gunpowder partisans? How can your people become equipped and trained (assuming normal flow of research) to deploy a tach that your civ has no knowledge of yet?

So when you have Communism, then finally discover Gunpowder, you get people taking to the hills with guns (partisans).

It takes a tech tree jump to get to the advance of GW without Comm or GP, but once a civ actually knows how to make Partisans, you get the unit coming form your captured cities, too.

That's my take on it.

People should naturally feel free to test it. I am not familiar with the cases or examples of how/when using Cheat Mode affects gameplay (beyond the obvious direct effects). Is there a link to it? To my knowledge, a tech is a tech.... if you got it, it has its effect.... no matter if it was stolen, traded, researched, edited with Cheat Mode.

So I'm personally sure that GP/Comm/GW are the only 3 techs that turn on/off the Partisans from captured cities. But if someone discovers something different, we've all learned something new!