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**Chainsaw** · March 18, 2001, 06:06

Well, I´m not much above average, I´d guess, but a non-ICS strategy that works quite well for me at deity is the following:

If you choose a big map, you should have plenty of room to expand without any nieghbors bothering you for the first few millenia. Expand, build a core of let´s say up to ten cities. These ten will keep buildig caravans and wonders. And of course your SSC, which is vital. Rivers and trade specials are very important. The cities which are not in this core must go on expanding and exploring. GW might help against barbs and early agressors. Don`t bother building improvements except for temples to keep your cities growing, and maybe some city walls for protection. When you have enough beakers and coins, a marketpalce and / or a library might seem worthwile. Trade much, if possible with the AI. Exploration should be the second priority after wonder/caravan building. If you choose to go for AC, vital wondes are the SSC-wonders, Mikes, JSB and Leos for the early- and middle-game. Magellan and Adam Smith are also very helpful, but not as vital as the ones mentioned above. Mikes and JSB, if you have the resources additionally the Oracle or the Hanging gardens, allow you to switch to rep/demo early, which is very important.

Playing bloodlust go for Sun Tzu, Magellan and eventually the Lighthouse. Look out for food- and production specials as well as for hills/forests to crank out many units. Building MPE is also a good idea for intelligence.

The great libraray delays more than it helps, but as a warmonger it might help you after you have researched vital war-techs such as monotheism, feudalism and chivalry. Playing a peaceful trade-based strategy, the GL slows your research down too much by giving you techs you don`t really need.

Micromanagement is important. Depending on the strategy that you play, you have to maximize the trade / production in your cities. Always keep an eye on what you need, and where you need it. So the core cities should focus on trade (rushbuy those caravans), the peripheral cities should quickly build defense and new settlers.

That´s just a quick summary of my starting strategys on a large map. There`s a lot of helpful advice on these boards, and check out the Great Library here on Apolyton for really great help. And I bet some of the Professionals will deliver much more better techniques in this post VERY soon

**Scouse Gits** · March 18, 2001, 09:28

I think you will find these links by Matthew worth a read. http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum3/HTML/000940.html http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum3/HTML/001269.html?31
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SG(2)

**TCO** · March 18, 2001, 12:22

For the style of game you are playing:

Mike's is more important than Leo's. Hoover's is more important than UN. These should be obvious.

**Rufus T. Firefly** · March 18, 2001, 15:10

quote:

Originally posted by Marko_Polo on 03-18-2001 12:57 PM
Well, you can actually get all the wonders you want The key is, don't build wonders, but food caravans/freights instead.

I've only just started to win at deity, using exactly the strategy you want to use, and Marko Polo's suggestion is at the heart of what I do. Essentially, I start building wonders early and never stop. What I like to do is have each city I build found two other cities and then, once adequately defended, begin kicking out caravans. Wonders tend to get built in 3 places: my capital, my second city, and my highest sheild producer (sometimes this is the same as my second city). Cities can't produce caravans constantly; they need to build improvements, of course, but except for the science city they need very few: temples, marketplaces, aquaducts, sewers, walls.

Monarcy and trade are, of course, early priorities, but beyond that I let my desire for wonders dictate my tech path, beginning to build each as soon as I get the requisite tech. The order is: Colossus, Gardens, Copernicus, Leo's, Mike's, Adam's, Isaac's, UN, Hoover, Bach's or the Cure, SETI, Apollo. I also try to build Shakespeare in the SSC, but can't always do it; still, with this system, it's the only one I don't end up getting, and getting pretty easily.

Some clarification: First, Leo's is your forth wonder because the AI wants it so badly; you have to build it early if you want to build it at all (and you do; you can't waste time and shields upgrading an antiquated military). Second, you want to be in Democracy ASAP, but never before Mike's is built -- in fact, don't even bother with Republic before then. Third, don't undersell the importance of the UN; late in the game it will keep the AI at bay (I play ToT, where the AI seems to be the bastard child of George Patton and Travis Bickle, so this is very important to me).

Does a good deity player need all these wonders? Heck no, but we're not good deity players...yet. And would a good player really ignore the awsome power of trade? See previous answer. The way I figure it, deity is like a complex instrument I've never played before, and a low-wonder game with a fabulous trade strategy is a thing of beauty akin to a Mozart concerto. But nobody starts with a Mozart concerto; for now, I just want to squeak out "Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star." That's what this strategy is for me.

Two other points: first, I've taken to heart Scouse Git's "A Is for Alphabet" thread and play only as neutral or perfectionist civs, since they get starting techs more likely to help this strategy. Second, a small thing: I've stopped building granaries, both because rapid growth messes up happiness and because population is the factor most likely to make you supreme -- and I like to avoid that if I can, since it keeps the AI from wanting to pick fights and/or ally against me.

Anyway, that's what I do and it works for me. Hope it helps!

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Dig trenches, with our men being killed off like flies? There isn't time to dig trenches. We'll have to buy them ready made. Here, run out and get some trenches.
-- Rufus T. Firefly, the original rush-builder

**solo** · March 18, 2001, 19:49

JugglerBob

Your question reminds me of what I went through when learning the game, as I used to play pretty much the same way as you describe with about the same results. I would explore and expand rapidly to about 20-30 cities, and then develop them as much as possible while trying to remain peaceful with the AI, going with monarchy until democracy was available, concentrating on trade, science and important wonders on the way. As I progressed through each level, it got harder and harder to learn the tech tree quickly and as each game lasted longer the AI became more formidable and more aggressive. A win at deity seemed out of reach, because in my first win at emperor, I just made it to AC before the 2020 deadline!

The game seemed very well designed and quite challenging to me at this time, because I was playing it the way the designers had expected and I had not been exploiting 3 major features (they could be regarded as flaws) in the game design:

1) The more cities you have the better. You have more income, more trade, more science and more production. Capturing AI cities is the most efficient way of accomplishing this, since they become weaker as you become stronger and stronger. Early conquest of the AI is the easiest way to quick victory.

2) Fundamentalism makes it too easy to do this. The 50% science rate is not a big enough handicap, considering its other huge advantages. No happiness, senate or unit support problems, and a tremendous income. Consider also that a Fundamentalist with 50 cities with a science rate at 50% will learn as quickly a Democracy with 25 cities using a 100% science rate. How often can a Democracy set science at 100% and still generate the necessary income and luxuries that are required? All a Fundamentalist has to do is set income to 50% and science to 50% to learn just as fast or faster than the AI. Also consider that learning techs is also the slowest way to acquire them.

3) Diplomats and (especially) spies are so versatile and powerful, and yet are a tremendous bargain at a mere 30 shields apiece. Early conquest is most efficient by inciting revolts and paying for AI cities. Let the AI build the libraries and wonders that you might like to have later. One diplomat can also protect one your own cities better than a barrel full of monkey units.

Considering these game features, a successful gameplan at deity might be:

1) Explore and expand as quickly as possible. The best early wonder is Michaelangelo's Chapel, so you can keep expanding quickly and keep from spending shields on temples and colosseums. Build plenty of units, before city improvements, especially horsemen, which only cost 20 shields and can upgrade to cavalry with Leonardo's later. Go for at least 3 units per city first. Have plenty of diplomats. Then focus on economic development with trade caravans, marketplaces, banks, and don't worry about libraries, universities or SSCs. The other early wonder well worth having is Marco Polo's Embassy, allowing you to wheel and deal techs.

2) Aim for 2 other essential wonders: Leonardo's and Statue of Liberty. Once you have SOL, you can go directly to Fundamentalism and the conquest can begin. After that, aim for espionage. Use embassy information to be more efficient in giving and trading techs. Focus on cities with wonders you would like to have that the AI have built, especially the Pyramids and Adam Smith's. Demand tribute whenever possible. Use the proceeds from that and caravan deliveries to buy AI cities. Technologies come quickest by conquest and theft. Break your word whenever it is convenient. Learn to be mean and cynical. Keep doing these evil things over and over.

This works for me every time and should give you the general idea. Start a deity game and give it a try!

Forgot to mention:

3) Never hurts to have the best Navy, too. Quickest and safest way to get caravans to market and diplomats to their targets. My personal preference is to bribe any AI ship I bump into. They cost a lot, but each ship you gain is one more the AI lack. Fewer of your own ships and their cargos will be sunk, too. Magellan's is on my essential list, too. Later in the game, when transports, spies and cavalry are in the picture, AI cities will fall easily. Take out city walls with spies and take over with cavalry. For fun, soften up coastal cities first with AI ships you bribed to your team earlier.

4) There are a lot of little tactical tips and techniques, examples: a city already in revolt costs half as much to buy; essential wonders are safer in your capital (which can not be bought, since even the AI have been known to incite revolts). You'll find them all in this forum.
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It is more pleasant to live in the corner of a housetop,
than in a wide house with a brawling woman.
[This message has been edited by solo (edited March 18, 2001).]

**Marko_Polo** · March 19, 2001, 01:57

quote:

Originally posted by Juggler_Bob on 03-17-2001 11:00 PM
[quote]How much micro-management is necessary / desireable? (I usually check all of my city screens every two or three turns, but I don't usually optimize production every turn. I do tweak trade output right before a caravan establishes a trade route. [I am curious: if you optimize trade output for every city rather than just the city the caravan comes from; is the trade bonus for the new route further improved?] )

I also check my cities every two or three turns and tweak the workers so that I could get nice 5/10/15/20 shield production so that as little as possible is wasted. If I have uneven shield amount in my box, I change to something cheaper, rushbuild it to get even shield amount and then switch back to what I really want.

quote:

Which are the most important wonders (if you have to choose between two or three?) Often I must choose between Leo's and Michelangelo's or Hoover's and United Nations, or whatever, as the AI civs are capable of completing multiple wonders in a given turn. (Example: the AI is about to finish Isaac's so I rush build. The AI switches to Mike's which I am also building, but I am also building Leo's and I know the AI also has Invention, and I know I am not able to afford to rush-build a third wonder. Which do I choose? Which ones are absolutely vital?

Well, you can actually get all the wonders you want The key is, don't build wonders, but food caravans/freights instead. Build them using incremental rushbuilding. I usually do the following: I let the city produce some shields, rushbuild warrior (10 shields if applicable), then horse/pikeman/(fanatic if you are in fundy) (20sh), then diplo/spy (30sh), then settler/engineer (40 sh) and let the city build the rest. Needless to say, you must have a good economy to have the gold for rushbuilding. By using the caravans you get a wonder shield for approximately 2,5 gold compared to 4 gold when rushbuilding wonders. When you have the caravans ready you can build the wonder you want in one turn. Hope this helps!

**La Fayette** · March 19, 2001, 11:18

1) Play small map
The game is the same, but you get your results much sooner (= faster and better training)
2) Play bloodlust
You get your results even sooner (= even faster and better training)
3) Micromanage
In the early game, you have few cities to manage: look at each of them each turn and try to optimize shields, arrows and food (especially controlled growth and stepwise rushbuilding are good for you to master).
4) Be a monarch
Try to get to Monarchy ASAP and stay there until you can switch to commie or fundy (Republic and Demo are great, but happiness problems are the core of deity level and they are not easy to solve under Rep or Dem).
Under Monarchy you can stick to the basic rule that I would sum up like this (you can add the effect of any happiness wonder to those basic results):
- up to five cities: 1 blue face + 3 units = size 4 max
- up to 11 cities (all faces red): 3 units + 1 temple = size 5 max (with Mysticism and without Oracle)
- city #12 brings black face #1: avoid it (or play ICS).
5) Get 1 happiness wonder
HG is great, but you haven't lost if you lose it: Oracle and Mike are not faraway. Of course Mike is better, but Oracle shouldn't be despised (playing against the AI). 11 cities size 7 (with Oracle) can make a tremendous job.
6) Avoid building early improvements
Apart from Temple (low cost, high performance), you need NOTHING (until the very late game) in cities other than your SSC.
7) Scout, trade and talk
Even harsh warmongers don't spend all their time fighting.
Early scouting gives huts and contacts.
Early trading gives gold and beakers (much more than early improvements).
Early talking gives TRIBUTE (try it: it's amazing how much you can get).

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aux bords mystérieux du monde occidental

**Scouse Gits** · March 19, 2001, 11:40

First a small correction --

quote:

Originally posted by solo on 03-18-2001 06:49 PM
JugglerBob
Consider also that a Fundamentalist with 50 cities with a science rate at 50% will learn as quickly a Democracy with 25 cities using a 100% science rate. How often can a Democracy set science at 100% and still generate the necessary income and luxuries that are required? All a Fundamentalist has to do is set income to 50% and science to 50% to learn just as fast or faster than the AI. Also consider that learning techs is also the slowest way to acquire them.

In Fundy - you have a double science wammy! Not only can you not set Science (usefully) above 50% but 50% of that is wasted!! so the best youcan do is 25% effective science -- this does not negate the rest of this excellent advice (and still leaves Fundy my favourite form of government)

A suggestion -- many players find the unhappiness simply too much to handle under representative governments and it is the struggle for happiness in the middle games that leads to the stagnation and eventual defeat of such empires -- don't worry the facility to play Rep governments at deity will come, but it is decidedly hard -- might I suggest a middle road - use SoL to leap into Super Monarchy (it's called Communism in the game) - low support costs, double martial law and 80% Sience - basically you continue to play as you have already mastered in a variant of Monarchy - the mid-game stutters go away and you should have a far easier ride.

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Scouse Git[1]

"Staring at your screen in horror and disbelief when you open a saved game is one of the fun things of a succession game " - Hueij
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

**solo** · March 19, 2001, 12:26

Thanks for the correction Scouse Gits, as I hate to give out inaccurate advice. It's been a while since I've played that kind of game, but that's no excuse for not checking my facts.

However, I do remember a game where I had about 150 cities after knocking off all but one AI metroplis and was getting discoveries every 2 turns with Fundamentalist science. In that game, I got Future Tech 1 by 1900, which shows that even the double whammy can be easily overcome by the raw science output of so many cities.

Communism isn't bad either, but I've found it much easier to deal with the science penalty in Fundamentalism than with the economic one imposed by Communism.

**Everyman** · March 19, 2001, 15:23

Juggler Bob,

Here's my take on your questions.

Should the Great Library be built?

The disadvantage of the Great Library is that it takes away your control of your tech path, meaning that it will take longer to research desired techs. You can always argue that you need the techs anyway, but in the early and middle game, you'd do well to streamline your tech paths, particularly the tech paths relating to happiness and the economy.

The advantage of the Great Library is that if you obtain it later in the game, it will enable you to backfill your techs in areas you may not be actively researching (in my case, it's usually the naval and military tech paths).

My feeling is that the Great Library can help you backfill techs if you build it or capture it in the middle game but can hurt you if you build it in the early game. I would recommend that when learning Deity, you should try playing without the Great Library.

Should I be more willing to pursue the path of war?

In general, you should pursue war whenever an enemy city can be captured without expending an inordinate amount of your resources relative to the advantage you derive from the capture of the city. For example, a size one enemy city in the early game might be captured by a horseman, as it may not yet be walled or even defended at all -- this is how enemy civs are wiped out in the opening moves.

It's not necessary to wait for tanks and howies before conquering the world -- for me, spies and vet cavalry are adequate. The key is to have superior units -- if you have researched Tactics and Conscription before your opponents, then you can begin your world conquest.

How much micro-management is necessary / desireable?

I'm sure the expert Deity players check their city screens every turn andadjust their citizens accordingly, but I don't. Checking your screens every turn will probably make you more effective, but in my case, it takes away some of my enjoyment of the game.

Which are the most important wonders (if you have to choose between two or three?)

Hanging Gardens is the most important wonder in the early game, as it allows your cities to become more efficient at the onset. Michaelangelo comes a close second for the same reason. Then comes Leonardo and the Statue of Liberty (allows me to switch to Communism or Democracy -- instant boost in trade and science).

**Scouse Gits** · March 19, 2001, 19:29

I like the Hanging Gardens for ICS - try sleazing without it for a lesson in painful riot control.
To a degree, all wonder priorities are dictated by the size of map and the game you wish to play.
There are almost no circumstances when the Great Library is a good idea. You are far better off with Marco Polo's Embassy. (4 caravans instead of 6!) With this wonder you have access to all civs, so you can exchange science on a selective basis, as well as the chance of forming early alliances. In addition, it allows access to maps, so you can trade or conquer once you know the geography.

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SG(2)

**Juggler_Bob** · March 20, 2001, 02:08

quote:

Originally posted by Everyman on 03-19-2001 02:23 PM
The advantage of the Great Library is that if you obtain it later in the game, it will enable you to backfill your techs in areas you may not be actively researching (in my case, it's usually the naval and military tech paths).

First of all, I would like to thank everyone for the advice, and I will keep you informed of any progress...

As to the above quote:

It has been my experience (and I could be wrong), that the GL does not really "backfill" techs. It seems that the game only checks at the point in which a AI civ discovers a tech whether another civ also knows it and then gives it to the GL's owner. It doesn't seem to do checks of existing techs at the point when it is built (or captured )

So, if everyone else already has warrior code (for example) by the time you get the GL, it won't give it to you. Of course, it has no problem with giving you Iron Working and Feudalism even if you don't have Warrior Code, thus rendering the tech useless (but probably necessary to research anyway, whether you want to or not )

-Bob

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Semper ubi sub ubi!

**Dis** · March 20, 2001, 06:51

I'd just like to point out that I am like you Juggler. In fact our playing styles are so similar you might actually be me .

I've asked this before. My goal is to keep a similar playing style, and win at Diety (I have yet to do this). I don't like ICS, and I'm not a early warmonger- I wait till mobile warfare to take over the world depending on the situation. But up till them I'm a perfectionist.

the best tip I seen here is to avoid building to many improvements. I tend to build temple, granary, marketplace, library, aquaduct, and sewer system in all my cities with harbour in the ocean one's. This does seem a bit much.

question: do you guys rush build ALL your caravans. This may be a mistake by me. I have been building a lot more caravans than I used to, but haven't been rush buying them. I rarely rush buy city improvements later. This is a flawed way of thinking on my part. I don't rush buy because I like to have emergency funds to get the wonder I want. I just don't feel right unless i have close to 1000 gold saved up. But I should be saving money in the form of caravans. This is my goal for my next game.

**Scouse Gits** · March 20, 2001, 08:15

quote:

Originally posted by Dissident on 03-20-2001 05:51 AM
question: do you guys rush build ALL your caravans. This may be a mistake by me. I have been building a lot more caravans than I used to, but haven't been rush buying them. I rarely rush buy city improvements later. This is a flawed way of thinking on my part. I don't rush buy because I like to have emergency funds to get the wonder I want. I just don't feel right unless i have close to 1000 gold saved up. But I should be saving money in the form of caravans. This is my goal for my next game.

Yes, rush buy freight when appropriate! Don't keep gold in reserve for Wonder building - have a ready supply of caravans.

Large gold balances are a liability. First contact with AI civs often results in them demanding a large part of your money before they will speak to you. If you don't cough up they declare war. If you have under 50 gold they will ask for a tech which is much easier to give away.

Any surplus money I have usually goes into rushing along caravans to bring in more money and science. I only save gold when I am contemplating a bribing spree.

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SG(2)

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