Intermediate skill level strategy discussion =)

[Hawkx9]

KhanMan,
Yeah, I realize that Archipelago forces the inclusion of sea strats/considerations, but I think this is more towards what the game was intended to be like. Before playing with this map setting, I hadn't ever built a water unit other than a transport! I think that says something. The fact that the designers bothered to include all those 'extra' sea units goated me into trying an 'island happy' map. It's not bad. Granted, it's a little cumbersome at times, but I'm starting to realize the value of naval assaults (ie. vet Iron Clads) and landings. Using transports and their kin to move units to the front, instead of waiting for a road to go up or tretching over unknown territory with my Crusaders, seems a more effect use of time (but it depends on the map settings, of course).

I like making the early jump to Republic because it allows you to max out your cities w/ WLT*D. This combined with the arrow bonus gives you a great burst for a quick Democracy for SoL. This suits my style of play because I don't enjoy maintaining a large amount of cities - it's just too tedious for me. (Once I start conquering and taking over cities, I probably hit auto build faster than I should. )

As far as the Horseman vs. Warrior debate... I used to prefer Horseman as well, but losing them made me cringe because of the time and effort I had to put into making 'em - I had to research the tech AND spend twice as much as a warrior. Having to research the extra tech is the bigger problem of the two. The tech itself really serves no purpose - it's not on a path to Monarchy and it doesn't make available a great unit and Wonder (as does Bronze Working). The support problem really isn't as big as it seems. If you tip a hut and the new unit assigns itself to your town, simply send the warrior home for disbansion (gets back some of those lot shields) or reassignment (don't need to produce another explorer from second city). Also, if you find an archer in a hut, you save the time of having to produce a phalanx for your capital.

East Street Trader,
After playing my above strat a little more, I'm finding that you're right. The tech advantage dwindles after time and you're left fighting an opponent who's technologically equal but has a production bonus - not a good place to be. So to modify the strategy above, I've been thinking of a few changes. I really missed the SSC, and as Smash said eariler, you don't really need Hanging Gardens to pull off an early Republic. (It makes it much easier but isn't necessary.) So, instead of the Hanging Gardens, Colossus is produced. (I find that I can't get more than one of the early Wonders w/o bending over backwards; besides, Colossus lasts longer and is great for trade routes.) Now, since I'm going to have a SSC, The Library shouldn't be needed. Instead, I will research all desired 'stream-line' techs and, thru conquest, steal those which are on dead-end branches. My race to SoL is the same but instead of switching to Fundie permanently, I'll switch temporarily to reach some pre-determined goal. ie. cash amount or destruction of an opposing civ. After the goal is reached, I'll switch back to Democracy, shoot up the ladder until I feel I have the advantage again and then switch back to Fundie. The whole point of this being that Fundie is the best gov't for cash acquisition and war, while Democracy is the best for tech.

What do you think?

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Peace
[This message has been edited by Hawkx9 (edited June 17, 2000).]

[Scouse Gits]

Hawkx9 - Don't dismiss the horseman too quickly!

1) I always like someting on four legs as well as two. Offensive defence is critical, especially when you have to kill a barb archer, and chase down the barb king.

2) Hosremen are good scouts. With Leo's - a few centuries down the line - they are cavalry.

3) I note that part of your strategy is a rush for SoL - I wouldn't disagree with that for a moment. Horseback Riding may not be on the tech trail to Monarchy - but it is for Democracy!
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SG (2)

[SilverDragon]

quote: Originally posted by rah on 06-16-2000 07:39 AM My advice is to play deity and practice getting your butt kicked. Playing at the lower levels just teaches you bad habits that you will have to unlearn to beat the game at deity.

Exactly. I was a wimpy prince level player, who was too scared to play diety until I came to apolyton. I lurked around and read DaveV's strategy. Then I decided, Hey, I can do that too. So I played diety, skipping king and emp completely, and I lost. I played again and lost. I played a third time, and won by a landslide with an 1807 landing . This time it was after I had read more strategy from smash and ming. Anyway, I spent over a year on cheiftan, learning bad strategies. Not good. So I have come up with a rule that I was too late to follow, but I still can tell to other people. Once you win twice in a row on a level, move up. No matter how many times you lose, stay on that level and do not move back. Now go play diety, and win .

[rah]

Before you play MP, perfect using trade arrows and quick controled expansion (no control if you play ics)

Learn the people you play with, if they don't get real agressive early, don't build a wastefull defense. If the do, really really protect your border. The best players make you guess. Information is key. If the people you play with don't build defenses (like quite a few ICS's early) Build some mobile units and jump on them early. It will cripple them. (and I've rarely seen an ICSer continue a game after being jumped on early)

Take advantage of tech superiority windows and always take too much to attack instead of coming up just short.

Vet Chariots before bronze. (for the real quick)
Vet Crusaders before feudalism.
Vet Catapults before gunpowder.
Ironclads(vets if you can manage it) before coastal fortresses.
Vet artillary before a lot of things.
Vet howies before (naw it doesn't matter, whatever)
Nukes before laser.

There are many many others, but you have to time it right and move quick. Even if you're behind in a tech race, you can win at least one race to a good tech window. Mathmatics while others are chasing happiness wonders or (leo's or sol). (Sun Tzu's is particullary useful , but not necessary.

but remember to find time to trade and expand.

RAH

[Hawkx9]

Keeping with theme of this thread...
With the insistence of everyone that early trade routes are a necessary part of a winning strategy (and they're right, of course), I'm going to add some modifications to my strat that began this thread. [NOTE: I will only discuss strategies up to the construction of the SoL, at which point personal playing style, more than anything, will determine the outcome of any particular game.] Warning: the following will probably be apparent to those experts out there, but keep in mind I am not one of you. King/Emperor is my level of choice as of now and this strat is geared toward informing others of similar skill. (In other words, these are things I wish someone would have told me a long time ago. )

"How the heck do I find a good city with which to trade…?”
This was always a question of mine. I've been a fan of Marco Polo for some time now and it seemed the logical solution. It's a fantastic wonder. Since it gives you an embassy with every other civ, you're free from having to roam the map in search of them. Also, enlisting a diplo and actually getting him to the other civ unharmed is a challenge in itself in the early stages of the game. The embassy tells you everything: how much gold and what techs they have (e.g. are you going to be fighting phalanx, pikemen, or musketeers?), in what gov't they are currently, and most importantly - allows you to trade with them so you can get their maps! This allows you to know exactly what city you will be sending your caravans without ever having yet constructed a trireme.

“What about those damned barbarians…?”
Now that we know where we'll be sending our caravans, we need to assure safe passage. (Nothing is worse than losing a boatful of camel. ) We'll accomplish this by constructing another underrated wonder - the Lighthouse. Think about it... Would you rather have a green trireme that moves 3 and must hug land OR have a vet who moves 4 and doesn't have to worry about being lost at sea?? Vets will survive a battle, more often than not, so you won't lose those precious caravans. And the 4 mov’t, along with not having to hug land, will probably shave 5 turns off of its travel time. Also, the Lighthouse makes available faster moving vet Ironclads (money), which I will talk more about later.

Goals…
Here’s a quick, step-by-step, rundown of my new set of goals:
· Lay stake on a nice, non-shield producing grassland
· Exploration w/ Warriors – 2 from capital, 1-2 from 2nd city
· Each city produces a phalanx and 3 settlers until 6 cities are founded and each supports one settler.
· SSC begins construction of Colossus while 4 supporter cities produce caravans. Sixth city will control border.
· Each supporter city produces enough caravans for Lighthouse and MP construction.
· Once Lighthouse and MP are complete, produce triremes for travel and 3 caravans per city for routes and send them to a far away capital.
· After infrastructure completion (temple and marketplace), the switch to Republic is made. (Should happen before trade routes go up.)

A note on trading maps…
I’ve found the best way to trade maps, w/o having to give the AI any advanced techs, is to research Monarchy, Trade, and Mapmaking and nothing farther (switch to 70% tax). As soon as MP goes up, I contact my opponents and give them what they don’t have, after which I restore my science allocation. Usually, giving away these techs will be sufficient to move you to “worshipful” so they’ll trade maps. (Usually, they’ve been busy reaching military techs so they won’t have many of these.)

A note on military and timing…
I do not pretend to be an expert on war. I’m far from it actually. But, for those of you who didn’t know… Vet Ironclads are sweet little units. Since we’re going to be constructing the Lighthouse, we might as well take full advantage of it. Vet Ironclads are about the only thing in its time that can weaken a coastal city protected by Musketeers and City Walls. Did you know that ships ignore city walls? That’s right. A vet Ironclad is a 6/6 that can attack multiple times per turn!
Also, another nice little trick you can use if you have Leo (for those who didn’t know)… Just before the completion of Chivalry, pump out some Horsemen. When the tech hits they all change to Knights – half the cost.

So ends my incredibly wordy addendum. All criticism is greatly appreciated.

Let’s here from the rest of the King/Emperor crowd! (I hope I’m not the only one. ) What strat do you use?

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Peace
[This message has been edited by Hawkx9 (edited June 18, 2000).]

[Aurelius]

Looks like Diety level to me.

[Hawkx9]

[East Street Trader]

Hawkx9

Having just scraped myself up off the floor after totally cocking up OCC11 (which I now see certain kind posters characterised as a nice easy challenge which any newbie OCCer should have no trouble with - HA HA, I don't think!) I'm full of doubt that anything I say is worth attention.

But what the heck.

Agree that luck is the main determinant on early wonders. I always get the one I first go for but whether I'm going to get others too depends on unseen events (altho' you can keep an early eye on the A1s in the top 5 cities screen - some of the risk of over-commiting to early wonders is reduced if you see, for example, that your second/third city is in better looking nick than some of their capitals).

Not sure it matters TOO much which one you go for. Like I'm currently saying to my daughter, it's not so much whether you pass or fail the damn exam it's more a question of the energy you apply to the situation you're in afterwards that matters.

But your partial conversion to trade arrows as a means to combat unhappiness suggests to me that you're thinking is gaining in sophistication. Trade arrows do a lot for you and your control of the gold/research/happiness balance allows you to respond to events. The Gardens are assuredly nice to have (especially on a big map where you're going to found more cities) but they are a touch crude by comparison.

Yes, Collosus carries on bringing in the tourists for a good long time. You'll find yourself putting off researching flight sometimes just to keep those trade arrows flowing in. Noticing that feature in Paul's OCC strategy is one of the things which gave the strategy a familiar feeling. (Hadn't realised the micromanagement would be so fierce tho' - I mean, hell, there's only one city to manage, right!).

But now we get to the point where I have stuff to learn from you butt kickers (intermediate or advanced). What I almost invariably do to cope with the A1s production advantages is to encourage them to immolate themselves on prepared defensive positions. They love to oblige. I build good defensive frontier cities and also occupy good mountain/hills choke points, build forts and watch them waste a big chunk of that production advantage turn after turn. You need little or no tactical nouse to do this. Later on I might buy up the cities of any serious competitor.

Better trading plus good defense will turn your strategy (whether HG based or Collosus based)into a winner in Deity if you are content to win via the space race. Played well you can also take the buying in of cities to the point where conquest is easy too (militarily challenged as I am I have to wait for howies to do this). You would probably need to learn a bit about combatting the research handicap by giving away tech as a final piece to the strategic jigsaw in order to be confident of ALWAYS winning or as near always as makes no matter).

BUT. Without ever having played a game I am confident that this won't work in MP. Human opponents won't just immolate themselves on my defences. Even without the A1s production advantage they will just trot out their favourite offensive tactics and KICK MY BUTT.

So I'm going to study up on the phase of your game where you go fundie and the vets (seemingly horsemen of one kind or another or ironclads - a unit I never build) roll. When I think up my first offensive tactic I reckon that'll be the time to try MP.

Offensive tactical tips very welcome.

If the learning curve in MP is as steep as it seems likely to be in this bloody OCC thing I'll then start a thread on "Masochistic Tendencies Observed In The Advance Of Civilisation".

[Scouse Gits]

Your Lighthouse is lots better than mine!! My vet Triremes only sail 3 (but don't sink).

You can talk and trade (techs, units, maps) without having established an embassy - any land unit can establish this contact. Of course the Embassy gives you lots more....



And Au - yup he should be at deity - definitely a lurker!

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Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor

[DirkZelwis]

Hello!
I normally play at emperor level, it is both fun and challenging. I beat the AI once at deity, re-loading every goody hut I didn't like, only to win the game. It was not fun, it was hard work, I just had to do it - once.
I like to have lots of cities, and, as on real earth, every continent inhabitated. Not necessarily by me, but inhabitated. And I do have a question about ICS, does it mean to have, say, 3 cities in the space of one city radius? Or does ICS mean, keep founding new cities all the time until the world is totally populated?
Good idea for a new threat, thank you!
Bye, Dirk
"Dirks and Daggers."

[DaveV]

Dirk Zelwis - there are many different styles of ICS out there, but I tend to build my early cities with only one space in between, so the ratio is probably about 4 to 1 versus the perfectionist approach.

[Hawkx9]

SG,
The Lighthouse doesn't increase mov't? Hmm... Oh, just not for triremes. My mistake. It's a cheap buy at 200 shields... IMO, if it saves one loaded trireme, it pays for itself. (Not including the nice vet-Ironclad window.)

Yeah, any land unit can make contact, but contacting the farthest civ (with is whom you'll probably want to trade) is a pain, especially if on an island.

Lurker? Well, in diety, the fact that the 2nd person in each city is already PO'ed is what bothers me. Although, starting with two settlers would definately be nice. Maybe I'll cave and try diety today.



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Peace

[kcbob]

Hawk, if you're always going after the LH and MP, do you find that you miss out on other WsOW that might be critical?

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Frodo lives!

Better dead than "Red"... or green... or blue... or yellow... or orange... or purple... or white.

[East Street Trader]

Love the lighthouse in small islands game but haven't played enough of them. Neglect it when the landmasses seem fairly large.

Be glad to know if basing some strat on it works out. The A1s neglect it so maybe easy to get it in combo with one or two others?

Never appreciated that ironclads ignore city walls. The threads where the vet ironclad is lauded make more sense now.

Thanks Rah. Your advice looks like the bees knees. If I can find a way to do it I'll print it out and then try out some preparatory attacking against the A1 in cheat mode. Poor preparation but better than none.

[Aurelius]

Cheat mode! I suppose you mean King level

I still don't like lighthouse in conjuction with super ironclad. If you go for a SSC, you'll develop magnetism before you complete your first iron clad! Adventurous Vet Triemes are nice though with silk and copper or a dip. In fact, I'd say forget MPE and just build 6 ambassadors for the hauls of your vet triremes.

ESTrader, What's a Demon Drink?