Intermediate skill level strategy discussion =)

[Hawkx9]

I know, I know. Most y'all who post on this board are very much 'experts,' but not being one of them, I wanted to start a thread for those of us who can't beat Diety/Raging-Hordes with one arm tied behind our back (so to speak). Guys, remember when Emporer used to give you a challenge? Anyways, since I just recently returned to this fantastic game, (just bought ToT for twenty bucks) I missed out on a lot of the "intermediate" stratgey discussions. Yes, I've read thru the archives and strat faq's, but it's not quite the same. SO, for those of you who cater more to King or Emporer, let's have a discussion. (all the experts out there, feel free to jump in at any time and help out your underlings)

To start with, I prefer playing on King (maybe Emporer soon) with map settings of Normal Map, Small Land Mass, Archipelago, Restless Tribes. Why Restless Tribes? Because I find Raging Hordes to be more of a distraction than anything. Yeah, I know it leads to a lower score, but hey, I'm playing for fun here. I prefer a normal sized map with small land mass because it leaves a respectable distance between civs yet doesn't allow the AI to lay down 50 cities. What a pain.

Okay, onto the strat discussion. Disclaimer: I don't pretend to have pioneered any of the following. It's just a collection of strats I've found that seems to work nicely together, with some of my own style thrown in. On the whole, it won't be anything new, but hey...

Roughly, the strategy is this: small number of cities, early Republic backed by Hanging Gardens to max science and cities @ 8-12, bee-line to Democracy, build SoL, switch to Fundamentalism, rule the World. In this strat, I do NOT construct a SSC. <GASP> That's right. With this strat, it's not going to be needed.

Laying Stake:
Since I play with a small land mass, I don't usually run around hut-tipping very long. If a hut is within the initial viewable area I will go for it. Other than that, I'm looking for a non-shield producing grassland on the coast with at least one special (whale being the best, obviously) in sight. Of corse, rivers make the best city sites, so this is the only time I'll break my "always on the coast" rule.

Exploration:
After discussing this with many of you, you're right. Warriors are the best initial explorers. They are cheap, plain and simple. Two of them from my initial city and one or two from my second usually does the trick. If I find units that assign themselves to a city, I'll send the warriors home for disbansion or assign them to a newly made city. 2 mov't units continue to explore while 1 mov't units (archers) are sent home for fortification.

Expansion:
My # of cities goal is 6. Why 6? Because, with my playing style, I've found that six cities is the optimal number in which I can build up an adequate infrastructure before the early switch to Republic. These first six cities will be the backbone of my civilization. As far as city sites go, I try and keep my cities tight without overlaping radii or leaving many open squares, but I don't obsess about it. If one or two squares overlap, it's not going make a big difference in the long run. I want to make sure I grab all the best land offered and if this means overlapping or leaving a couple of spaces open, so be it. With the exception of the first two cities, each city will produce a phalanx and 3 settlers until six cities have been founded and one settler is supported by each. The first two cities will produce explorers and wait on the phalanx until researched. Since I try to have at least one trade special within all my city radii, I wait on road construction until all six have been founded. Then my extra settlers go to work building the roadways, connecting each city.

Research Path:
Of course, Monarchy is our initial goal, but if a direct path is not offered (which is usually the case) I pick up Bronze Working and Pottery along the way. Pottery is a must because Hanging Gardens will be needed for the early Republic switch. After the above are obtained, I shoot for Republic, Philosophy, and Monotheism. After that, it's Invention and Democracy. As soon as The Republic is researched I switch imediately if ready. When's "ready?" If my infrastructure is complete. Which leads me to...

Infrastructure:
After my capital has produced its third settler and has a good defensive unit, I switch to Hanging Gardens (or some other available Wonder) before anything else. I must have Hanging Garden for the early Republic switch, but it shouldn't be a problem if you start on it early. Once all cities have their respective settler and defensive unit produced, each city constructs a temple and marketplace. By this time, Hanging Gardens is usually up, so my Capital does the same. After the improvements are complete, all cities, with the exception of those on a opponent's border, make caravans for future WoWs.
[NOTE: The opponent-bording city/cities find a good mountain choke-point, setup a fortification, and start buying some NONE units if possible. Peace must be kept with any nearby civ or a drawn-out war will insue, delaying our Republic switch, and that's not what we want. Kiss their ass by giving them anything they demand except for techs that will give them better units or make available WoWs that you have yet to construct. Ultimately it won't matter because retribution will be had. They will be the first civ we annihilate. ]
The Republic should be coming soon, if it hasn't already, so the switch is made. It's nice to have Aqueducts and Harbors up by this time but it isn't really necessary. Now jack the luxuries and max out your cities. (I love watching my pop skyrocket. ) At this point, your cities are big enough to receive a substaintial trade bonus for routes so feel free to set some up. Between this point and SoL, construct as many useful WoWs as possible with help of caravan dedication. Mike's Chapel, The Library, Leo, and Sun Tzu are particularly important for happiness, tech acquisition, and military prowess.

Party Time:
Once SoL goes up, you're free to switch to Fundie or Commie and go to town. Crusaders will probably be the unit of choice at this point because they require no additional research, but feel free to advance up the tree as desired before switching to a war gov't. Whatever point you switch, an 80% tax rate should be a nice back for your war effort.

Well, that's it. It's not really intended to be followed step-by-step, and I probably left something out, but you get the idea. Let me know what you think!

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Peace
[This message has been edited by Hawkx9 (edited June 15, 2000).]

[Smash]

I see no reason why this general strategy wouldn't lead to success on any level.

Basically,build up till superior technology,build an offensive army of high quality units, attack.Pretty solid.

You may be able to do this without The Gardens.First 3 citizens are content on king level.That is like a built in Mich's Chapel.With temple,market and at least 2 trade routes cities should be able to celebrate to 7.Then 30% luxuries(max) should keep them out of revolt.

If I build The Gardens it is more for the "extra" unhappies that appear on deity somewhere between 6-12 cities(several factors).It is a great wonder for early expansion or as you use it,to make "we love" easier.Those 3 happies usually make the city celebrate "we love the King".That can shave off 2-3 turns of research at that point.

helps out as you conquer cities if you stay Monarchy also.

[Hasdrubal]

Hawkx9, you obviously know what you're talking about. It is a solid strategy indeed. Why not try it at deity? I can agree with giving the raging hordes a miss, barbs are a pain. Give deity a try! And skip the SoL. Why build it if you're going to rough up your opponents anyway?

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Ceterum censeo Romanem esse delendam.

[Hawkx9]

Thanks for the kind words.

quote: Originally posted by Hasdrubal on 06-15-2000 10:04 PM And skip the SoL. Why build it if you're going to rough up your opponents anyway?

How do you mean? I go for SoL for the early gov't switch. Fundie and Commie take longer otherwise. Right?

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Peace
[This message has been edited by Hawkx9 (edited June 15, 2000).]

[SandMonkey]

Hawkx9 -

As most anyone who
s been around on this forum for a while can tell you, I do not post very often (200 some odd posts in well over a year is not too often ). I usually just read what everyone has to say. I have learned about 1000x's more information from these boards than any other source on the internet. I now play on Emperor, and just to proove my point, I won my first game I ever played on that level, in fairly easy fashion. If I win my next wouple games that easily, I'll move up to deity. But you should really try out your strategy on a higher level (emperor if you are not there, or deity), since one strat might work on a low level, but it'll be destroyed by even the horrible AI on a high level. Although Smash and Hasdrubal have given their stamp of approvel, so i am sure you'll do perfectly fine on Deity.

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SandMonkey

"Shut up brain or I'll stab you with a qtip"
-Homer Simpson

"Ecky ecky ecky!"
"It's just a flesh wound!"
- Monty Python and the Holy Grail

Check out my 1602 A.D. site

[Hasdrubal]

Hawkx9: Oops, I mixed up SoL and Eiffel Tower there.

[East Street Trader]

HawkX9

Nice strat. I'll read it again when I get thro' the day's less demanding pastimes and reckon it's got things to teach me.

One thing tho' - no mention of the pleasures of trade? A couple of trade routes will surely help. I can see, tho', that you want to get at the AIs quickly, while your military lead gives you a big edge. So quite at what point you may be able to squeeze out the resources to get one or two trade caravans rolling I'm not sure. Maybe give up one or two less essential Wonders?

By the way - you mention overlapping cities. Here's a little trading tip on that in case you decided that you have the time to get some trade routes in place.

Try overlapping a trade special square. You probably know that just before completing a trade route you max out trade in the city which is about to trade, going back to the city's normal production when the trade route is in? Well, if you've overlapped on a trade special square you get to use that square for maxing out purposes in both cities.

And IMHO overlapping one corner square gives efficient use of land anyway if you happen not to have oodles of room.

My guess is that the boost to the treasury and to research from the trade routes might get you to the point where you start to kick ass a tad earlier rather than later. Not certain tho'.

[Scouse Gits]

Good work - EST has a valid point you don't mention trade. Of course that might just be an incidental detail you overlooked, but for many players (even some 'experts' who haven't earned their bones on these fora) it is a neglected aspect of play. Build them caravans, and once you've got enough, build some more. thanks jpk.
Appart from that you seem to have things sorted the extra unhappiness on deity will unsettle you a little the first time you try it, but if you get the trade routes established the extra arrows will make your citizens happy bunnies again.
Good civin'

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Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor

[Advirus]

I like this thread. I would read these posts from people who are able to play at Deity and land on AC by 1000 AD and think, How the hell.... I tried some of the strategies, but I just couldn't get the hang of it. I finally gave up and pretty much stick to King with an occasional foray into Emperor. I'll try your strategy and let you know how I do. Thanks!

[rah]

My advice is to play deity and practice getting your butt kicked. Playing at the lower levels just teaches you bad habits that you will have to unlearn to beat the game at deity.
But basically the strat is the same. Trade is the most important aspect of the game and the most overlooked one when people start learning the game. Once you truely learn how to use it, even deity is not that hard.

RAH
Now go out and get you butt kicked.

[DaveV]

And now, equal time for opposing viewpoints: I routinely win against the AI without ever establishing a trade route. Check out some of the old threads on Infinite Cities Sleaze (ICS). Build LOTS of small cities; don't waste your money on improvements; conquer the world when you have some decent military tech (depends on the size of the map; usually Leadership is good enough).

This can also work in MP duels; it's probably not viable if more humans are involved. Your opponent also has to be patient enough to sit through turns in which you're moving dozens (or hundreds) of units.

[Ming]

Yes, ICS can be a powerful strategy in MP... duels or more players. Against the AI, it is almost unbeatable.

But, I just love the ICS'ers get nailed in a Raging Hordes game, or if somebody finds them early.
If I'm playing against an ICS'er, I concentrate on producing units first and finding him quickly. Nothing better than watching horseman destroy his many small and poorly defended cities
But, if barbs don't get him, and I don't find him quick, he will probably win...

[Hawkx9]

Overall, ICS may be the superior strategy, but in my opinion, keeping track of and maintaining a humongous army and array of cities takes WAY too much time and energy. I'm a perfectionist by nature so I think this would rank up there with my worst nightmare. I'd much rather have a nice, neat civ with some choice units backed by diplos. Of course, I don't play MP so...

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Peace
[This message has been edited by Hawkx9 (edited June 16, 2000).]

[KhanMan]

Hawk-Interesting, you and I seem to have opposite playing styles in mp (though, I'm hardly an expert).

I tend towards large, continents, wet worlds, since I prefer a land game to naval island-hopping any day.

I prefer horsemen to warrios, for the simple fact that, although the cost to build 1 horse equals that of 2 warriors, the upkeep will often be too much for me, since I want every shield possible free for settlers and such.

I tend to go Bronze-Horse-Monarchy, and, although I used to spend a lot of time in Republic, now I'm staying more in monarchy until SoL, demanding tribute of all (often about 1000 gold from six civs, every 7 turns or so), with a large army.

The reason I like this strategy is that, in the worst case scenario, I'm against all six civs, and they conquer half my empire, I can STILL battle back to win militarily, if not through AC.

This works for me about 80% of the time on King (prefered level, though I occasionally play at deity or emperor). I restart bad starting positions, but, to me, the fun part is how you play, not win percentages and all that...

-KhanMan of the Sayen

[East Street Trader]

I often used to restart bad positions too but stopped a little while back. In the result I get more varied games and am having more fun. A spectacular early loss or two to the barbs/A1 may also be good for the soul. (No, on second thoughts IT SUCKS).

I don't agree with SG(1) about happiness in deity. I reckon your basic strat will get you over that (altho', yes, do get some help from your honest traders - one particularly helpful thing is they will keep your income high enough to stay in production rich Monarchy until you have made your preparations to cope with the unhappiness which losing martial law brings). Kings may toady up to their barons but its their merchants they love really.

No, its the hideous production advantages given to the A1s, plus the fact that they will ferociously gang up on you once you are militarily supreme (in combination with a handicap imposed onto your research while you stay ahead on that front) which hurts. As it stands your strat won't get you past these things.

Their basic production advantage is bad enough but they get a further big bonus the minute you hit "supreme". I've seen a comparison in these threads of the no. of shields required by you and by the A1 at that point. Don't remember the figure but the A1 needs something like only a third or a quarter of the number you do.

When you make the switch you might want to know that 1750 is a bad date. After that date persuading any of the A1s not to hate you is very hard. And they start swopping techs like there's no to-morrow.

So, I'm afraid if you haven't crippled ALL of them by then, your tech lead will go in the space of just a few turns and, because of their production advantages, they'll start throwing hefty units at you like mad. It's not unusual to get the bad news that the b..... mongols have got mobile warfare and to have the first tanks at your gates on the same turn. And at sea its worse, battleships - ugghh!

But the thing is. The masochism is lovely. Come on in and try it. You'll LOVE refining your strat to get round these things.

And at that point .... well "trade rules, OK!". (IMHO, of course)
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by East Street Trader (edited June 17, 2000).]</font>
[This message has been edited by East Street Trader (edited June 17, 2000).]