We love the 'X' day - a crutch for the weaker player?

[Venger]

quote: Originally posted by Ming on 05-06-2000 08:03 AM When you state that it is was not the designers intent, you are calling it a cheat

You misunderstand the nuance I am trying to address. WLTXD is in the game for a reason. I believe it is designed to provide a bump to cities that happen to have good infrastructure and a well managed Civ. I don't believe it was designed to grow your Civ like a Chia Pet.

Venger

[Venger]

quote: Originally posted by Crustacian on 05-06-2000 02:22 AM *PS: The below quote from you Venger, is not even logical, as NONE of these things are 'required' by this game. What applies to one of these things can apply to all. 'Sieve: Getting to Republic is not a challenge, it is a requirement. Building roads and irrigation is another requirement. But then taking Luxuries to 80% to bloat your cities is not.'

I speak metaphorically. To me, Republic is a REQUIREMENT to have a successful game. Same thing with improving infrastructure. Again, a rhetorical statement indicating that if you don't build infrasctrucutre, you don't win, thus referring to it as a requirement. While it may be possible to never become a Republic (I never become Communist or Fundy, so I reckon some people can skip Rep/Dem if they really WANT to), I find it a requirement on Deity, at least at some point.

Venger

[carnide_]

I use it a lot.
Must be done properly.
Most of the times you have a few type A cities (over 6 in pop), a bunch of type B (size 3-4 cities) and a bunch of type C (size less than 3) cities.
With WLTPD you can turn your type B cities into type A cities. You have to manage well to avoid loosing a lot of research on the type C cities.
This can be done. I just happen to be in such a game.
Was a deity 2xprod, 1xmov game, in a med world map, random starting Civ locations.
I pick up the Chineese and started in .... Australia!! Argghhh..
I had some bonus techs, and surprise, one was Monarchy. What a gift! I planned to use WLTPD from that very moment.
I could not ICS. I raced to Trade, built the gardens, raced to the lighthouse (defensive puorposes), got Philo, got Republic, got Mono, built Mikes.
I had 6 size 3-4 cities, and was last on every demographic but literacy. But I had no type C city because I managed so.
I turned on WLTPD. 3 turns later I was 1st on pop. I started going after feudalism, Theology and sending out the trirremes.
The game was in the pocket.
The key: I started with Monarchy in a very bad spot, managed to have no type C city, and to use WLTPD. Even starting with Monarchy, but without WLTPD, the game could not be win.
The final point: WLTPD is built into the game, like trade arrows, or corruption. Learn to use it, or perish.

[Smash]

You don't restart for free techs?Doesn't that make the game a foregone conclusion and a waste of time?Thats the way it seems in your game.The win was yours for the taking before even moving on turn 1.

[shamrock]

Venger-

I think we may be at an impasse regarding your central point. I interpret "This can result in dramatic growth of the city" as a clear indication of programmer intent. You do not.

So let's put that aside and talk about some of the other points you bring up.

1) LACK OF REALISM: Judging by some of your comments (i.e. "find it ridiculous" and "population whoring"), I think you regard the population explosion of WLTPD as highly unrealistic.

As Hydey as already alluded to, perhaps it isn't so ridiculous. Consider the following example from modern times. In 1975, Bombay had a population of ~6 mil. In 1995, the population had exploded to over 15 mil - less than 20 yrs to double! (Hey hardcore civers: what is that in game terms? Like a size 34 city going to 55 or so?) Now this pop explosion was certainly not due to happiness, but it does show that it can happen. And during the early part of the game, 20 yrs = 1 turn - now that's a population explosion!

2. PEGGED LUXURIES/5X TRADE: For one, you certainly don't need to "peg luxuries" to enjoy WLTPD. As has already been stated, efficiently using WLTPD is not trivial, and if you do it right, you can often enjoy the benefits at a mere 40% lux rate. I don't think you'll ever see "5x trade," but you certainly do see benefits across the board that are related to increased population.

3. WINNING WITHOUT IT: Interesting proposition - I'm always looking for new ways to make the game a challenge, i.e. no wonders, launch spaceship by certain date, OCC, etc. Maybe I should add the No (intentional) WLTXD's Challenge or No Democracy/Repulic Govt. Challenge or No Luxuries Challenge. I'd be willing to try these things but only because I see it as making the game more challenging on its own terms, not because I am relinquishing a "crutch."

All right, I've rambled enough. Look forward to your comments and don't be too hard on Crustacean.

[carnide_]

Yes, I agree. Good management is a must.
- - -
Winning whitout it: a very interesting proposition.
- - -
To Smash: (For your INFO) Most games I play 1x1x, no free techs host advantage. But thats not the only way to play. The game I described was not one of such games, as a matter of fact was a 2x 1x game.
The point was: Even with those free techs, if I didn't use WLTPD, I could have not win.
So, WLTPD is a "de facto" necessary tool to win the game.

[SilverDragon]

WLTxD is part of the game. Get used to it.

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Long live the Communists!
-- SilverDragon

[Sieve Too]

I think Venger is missing the main point behind WLT_D. In order to do it successfully, you must be willing to give up a lot (expansion, war, good defense) while concentrating on infrastructure. I also think you overestimate its effects. By the time I'm ready to do WLT_D for the first time, my cities are probably around size 6 or 7 anyway. And after bankrupting my treasury for Aqueducts, the best I can do is get to size 12, assuming I've roaded and irrigated everything. While I'm doing this, I'm losing out on science.

Note that other gov'ts can attain similar explosive growth via food caravans.

[Scouse Gits]

Just a quick three ha'p'orth - the Attitude Advisor (F4 key) shows celebrating cities as bright white, non celebrating cities as white and revolting cities as red - is this not a clear indication that the game designers intended this to be used extensively?


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Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor

[vik]

Bravo, Venger.

While I thoroughly disagree with your hypothesis, I applaud the way you have responded to the answers. It seems many (or at least several) here would hold you in a dim light for proposing WLTxD is a crutch. However, you have responded to the reasoning quite well, considering your statement seems to be a touchy subject with some.

If you would agree that there is a trade-off incurred when using WLTxD, I think we could make some ground. The amount of resources a player chooses to allocate to luxuries directly affects the amount of resources taken away in science and taxes. Depending on the resource squares utilized, it can also affect food and shield production. For most players who plan on using WLTxD, it usually affects the starting city location as well.

If we can't agree there is a trade-off, perhaps we can agree that if WLTxD is available to all players (not just "weak" ones) then it is truly not a crutch.

take care.

[Steve Clark]

Getting on this fairly late. WLT_D or Republic, heck, even trades or wonders are not requirements for winning. To win, you either conquer all of the remaining civs or get that spaceships to some stupid far off place. As evident from all of our experiences, there are countless ways of doing that. To say that Republic is a requirement is simply wrong (never done that govt myself). To say that WL is a crutch - well, I only occassionally do it in my Science City and only by setting luxuries to 20-40% at most. It takes skills to grow your cities that way, thus a very valid strategy. And growing cities by 1 over a 50/20/10 year span is realistic. And luxuries at 80% is whoring?! Think of a small college town on the day of a big football game. I have witness towns of 10,000 swell to 125,000 (temporarily though). I have lived in cities in So.Cal that grew from 40,000 to 140,000 in only 10 years! Geez, next thing someone will say is that Pyramids are required. Sorry, just rambling...

[Sieve Too]

Steve brings up an interesting point. The setup for WLT_D is so severe that by the time I am ready, more often than not I'll have already discovered Democracy. So often I just skip Rep altogether and dive right into Dem.

[JERandall]

Ugh, I promised myself I wouldn't join in this discussion, but I just have to get this off my chest.

Saying that WLT_D is "unrealistic" is meaningless. Also meaningless is saying that ICS, or Wonder effects, or the movement rate of Armor, or anything else in the game is "unrealistic" -- because it is a *game*, not a simulation, and *not* reality.

Comparisons to real-world events, such as the swelling population of Bangalore or whever, are also irrelevant.

No, what is at isssue here is simply whether WLT_D is a crutch, or not. Personally, I don't believe it is; I believe (like Ming, et al.) that the designers intended for it to be used just as it is being used -- for explosive population growth, when managed correctly. (This is starting to sound like a Constitutional debate -- "original intent" and all that!)

I propose a solution to the differences of opinion:

(1) against the computer in single-player, do whatever you want... use WLT_D, don't use it; use ICS, don't use it; use the cheat menu, don't use it. It's a game, for fun, and whichever way amuses you the most is the "right" way to play.

(2) against other players in multi-player, agree before the game what is and is not acceptable. Don't play with people who use strategies you believe are "crutches" or "cheating".

There. Now can't we all just get along? :-)


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JERandall

[Venger]

quote: Originally posted by shamrock on 05-06-2000 02:32 PM Venger- I think we may be at an impasse regarding your central point. I interpret "This can result in dramatic growth of the city" as a clear indication of programmer intent. You do not.

I guess I don't think it was designed to be a global explosion. I think they expected may 2 or 3 turns of it in a city. But not 7 or 8 turns of it for the entire Civ.

HOWEVER: apparently they thought it would come and go quite a bit, that's why they allowed you to turn the message off...

quote: So let's put that aside and talk about some of the other points you bring up. 1) LACK OF REALISM: Judging by some of your comments (i.e. "find it ridiculous" and "population whoring"), I think you regard the population explosion of WLTPD as highly unrealistic.

Somewhat unrealstic. Again, if this was restricted such that it couldn't occur for 10 turns in a row, for every city in your Civ, I'd be more on board with it.

quote: As Hydey as already alluded to, perhaps it isn't so ridiculous. Consider the following example from modern times. In 1975, Bombay had a population of ~6 mil. In 1995, the population had exploded to over 15 mil - less than 20 yrs to double! (Hey hardcore civers: what is that in game terms? Like a size 34 city going to 55 or so?) Now this pop explosion was certainly not due to happiness, but it does show that it can happen. And during the early part of the game, 20 yrs = 1 turn - now that's a population explosion!

Certainly not due to WLTXD, more likely We Can't Keep Our Knickers On Day.

quote: 2. PEGGED LUXURIES/5X TRADE: For one, you certainly don't need to "peg luxuries" to enjoy WLTPD. As has already been stated, efficiently using WLTPD is not trivial, and if you do it right, you can often enjoy the benefits at a mere 40% lux rate. I don't think you'll ever see "5x trade," but you certainly do see benefits across the board that are related to increased population.

In my current game (second playing ToT), I'm getting it in a ton of cities at 30%. Just lasts for a few turns though in each city, until the next trade route, wonder, improvement, etc. is built. But I keep luxuries just to where it keeps me out of disorder.

quote: 3. WINNING WITHOUT IT: Interesting proposition - I'm always looking for new ways to make the game a challenge, i.e. no wonders, launch spaceship by certain date, OCC, etc. Maybe I should add the No (intentional) WLTXD's Challenge or No Democracy/Repulic Govt. Challenge or No Luxuries Challenge. I'd be willing to try these things but only because I see it as making the game more challenging on its own terms, not because I am relinquishing a "crutch."

In the current rule set there is limited action available. Can we cap luxuries, 40% maybe? Or remove WLTXD? If so, I'm all for it. Maybe cap Luxuries at 30%.

Ideally, I think that to get WLTXD, you'd need not only half happy, but:

x% literacy
0 pollution
no more than 2 military units in the field

and some other things that would make it a little rarer.

quote: All right, I've rambled enough. Look forward to your comments and don't be too hard on Crustacean.

Well, looks like Ming nuked my response. After all that hard work to clean it up, his post is an HTML mess...

Venger

[Venger]

quote: Originally posted by SilverDragon on 05-07-2000 01:32 PM WLTxD is part of the game. Get used to it.

Well that was enlightening. I think that's what they tell new prisoners - assrape is part of the sentence. Get used to it.

Venger