We love the 'X' day - a crutch for the weaker player?

[Venger]

This is going to start the FLAME WAR FROM HELL...

My opinion is that WLTXD is a crutch used by players to get around the inherent difficulty of building large cities under high overhead governments like Republic and Democracy. I have never, ever, adjusted my Luxuries rate to cause WLTXD. I have occassionally stumbled into it in a city here, a city there, lasting for a turn or two. But never what I've read here...using it to grow cities into huge size. Does anyone really think that was the design behind this? To let a civ take 20 turns to increase size 10 fold?

Apparently, this Luxuries whoring is used to quickly turn size 4 cities into size 12 cities in 9 turns. To me, that circumvents the natural growth the game intended. It is, in fact, related in my opinion to ICS. Taking the game mechanics and using them to a ridiculous fashion. At least ICS seems more subtle and realistic - 20 small cities versus 8 large ones. Using WLTXD as growth management really seems weak.

In this same fashion, is there a way to disable WLTXD in the rules? I'd like to avoid this altogether, or at least modify it so that WLTXD yields a 50% production bonus or somesuch, rather than causing such ridiculous growth...

Bring it...

Venger

[Ming]

You are welcome to your opinion.

But, you ask... "Does anyone really think that was the design behind this"

Well, yes! It is well documented in all the manuals (unlike many of the other things)
The rules seem very clear!
Let me Quote from the manual supplied by those designers...

Republic/Democracy
"A city currently ruled by either of these governments increases in population by one each turn it celebrates, so long as sufficient food is available. This can result in dramatic growth of the city"

Read the last sentence again... OK!
So yes, it was designed into the game, and is not a cheat.

Now, is it a crutch. Well, are the wonders a crutch? Are trade routes a crutch? These are all things that were specifically designed into the game, just like WLYD's.

Many people don't like some of the rules. I personally hate bribing cities for so cheap.
That is why they made it easy to change the rules. And frankly, if you are only playing against the computer... do whatever you want as long as you are having fun.

But, WLYD's growth is a legitimate tactic that was MEANT TO BE USED for fast city growth. So deal with it! And you better learn how to do it a lot if you ever want to win in an MP game.

[Smash]

hehehe.Never heard that idea before.It does help the Happy wonder owner more than anything else.On deity at least.Just another good reason to try and get them

[Sieve Too]

WLT_D growth is no easy crutch. First, you must get to Republic, which means sacreficing production and hampering your ability to explore, attack and defend. Next, you must have at least a Marketplace and a Temple in your cities or the celebration isn't going to last long. Next, you must have sacreficed expansion by using your Settlers to irrigate and road existing city squares instead of founding new cities. No food surplus = no growth. Next, you still need Aqueducts and Sewer Systems to grow past sizes 8 and 12. Beyond those sizes you must build expensive Banks, Colloseums, at least one happiness wonder and you must establish trade routes. Republic won't get you into the mid-teens so you'll need Democracy.

That's an awful lot of setup. ICS is much easier to do.

[catullus]

I would say it's just the opposite of a crutch for the weak; it's more of a benefit for the really good player. As Sieve Too said, you need good planning to reap the bounties of it. The timing involved to make it work can't be overestimated.
The Perfect Player knows how bring all cities up to minimum condition (at least 3 citizens in every city, the right happy buildings, the right growth allow buildings, the right cash), optimally at same size/infrastructure level before starting it. He will then adjust tax rate, food/trade harvest and specialists for every city to ensure growth. He will buy buildings every turn to sustain the growth. And he will see to that growth will reach stop point in all cities the same turn as cash runs out, then switch to science optimation.
The mediocre player will get growth in half the cities, while wasting enormous amounts of trade in all of them on lost luxury. He will run out of money when cities scream for aquaducts. He will fall behind in science, and end up with an even more unbalanced nation, some cities too large to handle on lux 40%, while some of the small ones could chug along at lux 0.

C.

[cavebear]

"Weaker players" - Well that would be me *s*

I have begun to learn how to use WLTxD properly after Demo and when cities have just gotten beyond aqueduct or sewers. It is still too tricky for me to manage earlier than that. I either don't have the food surplus or it hurts my shield production too much.

I don't consider it a crutch, though. Indeed, successfully manipulating the Luxuries bar requires skill and experience. It is the return on the tax and science bars that is easy(ier) and more obvious.

I think that efficiently utilizing WLTxD at Monarchy (where the gain is least evident to (my) unskilled eye) is quite a feat, and can probably determine the game winner in an otherwise even match.

[Venger]

Ming: No one said it was a cheat. Just a crutch.

Trade routes and wonders are explicit parts of the game. I don't think the designers of the game expected someone to peg luxuries for 10 turns to engorge their cities.

Sieve: Getting to Republic is not a challenge, it is a requirement. Building roads and irrigation is another requirement. But then taking Luxuries to 80% to bloat your cities is not.

As to the general argument - anything which utterly circumvents the aspect of the game normally bound strictly by time, i.e. city growth, seems all too easy.

Venger

[shamrock]

Venger-

You insist that the designers didn't intend for players to use WLTKD in this manner, but as Ming has already shown, it is well documented. How can you argue this point?

It seems to me that the only meaningful difference between WLTKD and all the other documented features of the game is that you don't think the +1 pop/turn is realistic. Even if it's not realistic, that alone is not enough to make it a crutch.

Do you ever build Leo's? How realistic is it that a captured phalanx can be magically transformed into a rifleman within a few turns? Leo's is extremely powerful and highly unrealistic. Is building it a crutch?
If not, what is the difference?

Not looking to be argumentative, just trying to understand your viewpoint.

[hydey]

Throughout history many cities have had periods of rapid population growth due to many varied causes. I believe the designers have done a good job in reflecting this in the game. Like all other stratergies in this great game the better players use them to better effect. Until I discovered multiplayer games and these forums I never used wlt?d now I do along with many other skills I have learn't from very helpful opponents. With practice I hope to become one of the better players so I can pass knowledge onto new players. To take WLT?D out of this game would IMHO help the weaker player rather than hurt them.

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hooray hooray its a Hydey Hydey day

[Crustacian]

quote: <font size=1>Originally posted by Venger on 05-05-2000 10:39 PM</font> 'Trade routes and wonders are explicit parts of the game. I don't think the designers of the game expected someone to peg luxuries for 10 turns to engorge their cities.' *Venger: Ming quoted the manual: 'This can result in dramatic growth of the city'....did you read it as he asked you too? *engorge=dramatic growth...duh! 'As to the general argument - anything which utterly circumvents the aspect of the game normally bound strictly by time, i.e. city growth, seems all too easy. Venger' *Your concern is respected but not agreed with by me. You would not call it easy if you were experienced in trying to pull it off while in a wonder race, or at war, or any one of the many things that must be balanced to see a "truly dramatic growth engorgement" rather than just a few times here and there. Try doing it when you are behind badly, to get max out of your civ before turning fundy in a last ditch effort to get a SS builders capital before it lands!!!! All the while you are at war with two very advanced and agressive AI's with spys, and modern units... You speak from a lack of experience with this method and that is why you presumptously call it easy, yet I have pondered your same concern in the past but these other posters on here have answered my other thoughts I would have shared already.

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The journey itself is the thing~Odysseus
[This message has been edited by Crustacian (edited May 06, 2000).]

[Crustacian]

[quote]Originally posted by Venger on 05-05-2000 10:39 PM

*PS: The below quote from you Venger, is not even logical, as NONE of these things are 'required' by this game. What applies to one of these things can apply to all.

'Sieve: Getting to Republic is not a challenge, it is a requirement. Building roads and irrigation is another requirement. But then taking Luxuries to 80% to bloat your cities is not.'

[markusf]

you sound like a ICS'r who can't stand we love the king day, because it blows ics away when done right. At least that has been my experience.

[Ming]

quote: Originally posted by Venger on 05-05-2000 10:39 PM Ming: No one said it was a cheat. Just a crutch.

When you state that it is was not the designers intent, you are calling it a cheat

[Venger]

quote: Originally posted by shamrock on 05-05-2000 11:20 PM Venger- You insist that the designers didn't intend for players to use WLTKD in this manner, but as Ming has already shown, it is well documented. How can you argue this point?

Was it designed as a way to grow cities? Doubtful. Was it designed to 4 fold increase your size in 6 turns? Doubtful. It was designed as an effect, not a cause. Frankly, I don't see how you CAN'T win using it.

quote: It seems to me that the only meaningful difference between WLTKD and all the other documented features of the game is that you don't think the +1 pop/turn is realistic. Even if it's not realistic, that alone is not enough to make it a crutch.

It is if that's how you grow your cities under democracy/republic. It's ridiculous to peg your luxuries for 12 turns and have 5 times the trade arrows you had before. Here's the test - try winning the game without using it.

quote: Do you ever build Leo's? How realistic is it that a captured phalanx can be magically transformed into a rifleman within a few turns? Leo's is extremely powerful and highly unrealistic. Is building it a crutch?

Leo's is pretty nuts. I build it if no one else has, but not to the exclusion of Mike's chapel or any other one.

quote: If not, what is the difference?

Leo's is a wonder. It is in the game to provide the upgrade benefit in lieu of shields used for the wonder. WLTXD seems to be best found occassionally, for a turn or two at a city, not to grow from size 6 to size 20.

quote: Not looking to be argumentative, just trying to understand your viewpoint.

No problem, that's why I posted it. I want feedback.

Venger

[Venger]

quote: Originally posted by markusf on 05-06-2000 02:23 AM you sound like a ICS'r who can't stand we love the king day, because it blows ics away when done right. At least that has been my experience.

I don't multiplay and I don't ICS either. Frankly on Deity ICS is a real *****. I also don't use WLTXD to suddenly covert myself into 4 times the size I was in 10 turns.

Venger