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  • 1) About shields:
    We discussed that, DaveV and I, a long time ago, and agreed that 2 or 2.5 gold/shield is generally the most reasonable to assume (since you need 25 gold to buy a row of 10 shields, and 2 gold when there is 1 shield left to buy in a row).
    1 gold = 1 beaker is what you get when you move the tax slider (without improvements, of course ).

    2) About trade routes and bonuses:
    Of course they are very important! (OldnSlow(?) sent an example the other day where more trade was derived from routes than from working all squares in the city radius: IIRC three '45 trade' routes ).

    3) About Superhighways:
    Of course they are very important! (provided that many squares already produce at least 2 arrows before you complete SH).

    4) About 2.5 Einstein:
    If you already have 16 Einstein busy in your SSC, 2.5 more bring nothing.

    Conclusion:
    I tried to answer the question asked by Elephant:
    "How does that compare in terms of beakers in a full SSC?", but I tried to make a short answer and that was not a good idea.

    Let me try a summary #2:
    1) Wheat is worth 2.5 Einstein, which means 60 beakers in a full SSC, unless the SSC already has 16 Einstein (or could have them without wheat): wheat is worth nothing special in that case.

    2) Silk is worth 3 more arrows, which means 24 beakers directly, but in fact much more than that if one takes into account the effects of SH, and the influence of those 3 arrows upon trade routes and bonuses.
    Aux bords mystérieux du monde occidental

    Comment


    • Working from La Fayette’s data, it looks like the silk could generate up to another three arrows if all the trade routes are so affected -- which means that it looks inferior if Einsteins can still be used. On the other hand, if the city has maxed out its effective specialists, then silk looks to be the better way to go.

      The extra shield or two might "break the tie" depending on the threshold of the city as a whole (especially if it moves production up from 48 to 50.)
      Those with lower expectations face fewer disappointments

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Old n Slow
        The extra shield or two might "break the tie" depending on the threshold of the city as a whole (especially if it moves production up from 48 to 50.)
        Silk provides 2 shields, which means 3 shields with RR.
        Then factory may bring +0.5, so would Power Plant and Manufacturing Plant. Global multiplier = 2.5 (with all 'industrial' improvements).

        In that case, silk brings 3*2.5 = 7 shields (rounded down IIRC).
        Then, if you agree with DaveV and I, you would say that this corresponds roughly to 7*2.5 = 17 beakers
        Aux bords mystérieux du monde occidental

        Comment


        • Originally posted by La Fayette
          1) Wheat
          A specialist brings 3 beakers/turn, which means 3*8 = 24 beakers/turn in the SSC described above.
          Therefore 2.5 specialists bring 2.5*24 = 60 beakers/turn.

          2) Silk
          With the slider at 100% research, 3 trade arrows = 3 beakers.
          Therefore 3*8 = 24 beakers/turn
          Originally posted by Elephant

          I think SH would have a major effect: it produces 50% more trade, not just one more, which Roads does. So Roaded Wheat, with Colossus and Rep/Dem, has 3 Trade, while Roaded Silk has 6. With SH, Wheat would have 4, while Silk would have 9.
          If Elephant is right, La Fayette's figures can be re-calculated. Silk with research at 100% provides 40 extra beakers per turn whereas wheat with a minimum of two additional specialists is worth at least 48 beakers per turn. So La Fayette's conclusion still stands. However, is it realistic to assume that Collossus is still operating when we are building Superhighways?

          RJM at Sleepers
          Fill me with the old familiar juice

          Comment


          • Of course it's realistic! To get the most out of your SSC, you delay Flight for as long as possible. After combustion, instead of choosing Flight and spoiling the (by now) wonderful effects of the Colossus, you go to Automobile and get to build SHs, which effectively give you two Colossi in the same city. Then by taking the research path all the way to Computers, you can further boost your research with the labs and that ought to take away some of the pain of having to research flight and lose the Colossus.
            I realise that this is just one way of playing, and that depending on what your game target is then you may take a differnet research path, but this is damned good for a game you're using to build a decent score.

            Comment


            • I think that if we work the calculations through, we’ll see the values switch back and forth -- i.e. early in the game, unroaded silk; roaded silk without trade routes, with trade routes, etc. compared to roaded & irrigated wheat (without specialists) etc.

              Without doing the math, silk seems to have the edge until one can gain the extra specialists, maybe even until farms.

              In any event, I don’t think that the marginal gains from one over the other are worth the transaction cost of switching back & forth during the game -- at best, I see switching once & staying with the change.
              Those with lower expectations face fewer disappointments

              Comment


              • If 'the proof is in the pudding', CFC's GOTM30 is a nicely timed test case: the SSC (New York) has one Silk and two hidden. I'm not done yet, but I'll try to write up a summary of the different stages of Grass/Silk/Wheat.

                Comment


                • IMO the main factor to be taken into account, when choosing between Silk and Wheat, is food provided by the other squares in the city radius.
                  Food shortage (or a lot of engineers work ahead to avoid it) = choose Wheat (remember all those poor SSC desperately in need of engineers to grow quickly)
                  Food surplus (not eaten within the next few turns by the predictable growth of the city) = choose Silk

                  My calculations were meant to provide the basics. IMO they are worth no more than that (because you easily enter endless discussions if you try to combine factors: just about the same as if you try to apply time value of money to rational choice of investments in civ ).
                  Aux bords mystérieux du monde occidental

                  Comment


                  • Howdy!

                    Shogun Weed special! Member of a new third Special class
                    Produces:
                    no shields (everyone too unmotivated to work that hard)
                    no food (everyone gets the munchies)
                    3 trade
                    The same in all terrains
                    (except grassland, and ocean where it appears as Pearls: 1f, 3t)

                    Originally posted by Wharf Rat
                    Greetings, this is my first post here at Apolyton!

                    Noob alert! I mean, Welcome!
                    Later in the game, the issue is a lot less clear. I think even without the airfield cheat, wine has to be the choice. Once mined, it produces one more shield than silk.
                    Yeah but Transforming to Hills and mining takes too long (as shown well back in the thread), especially if you've already got Wheat or Silk.
                    ( both require 2 rounds of Engr Trans @ 20/2 turns effort, plus mining at 10/2 turns effort, not to mention the time spent as mere grassland after the first Trans…)
                    (\__/) Save a bunny, eat more Smurf!
                    (='.'=) Sponsored by the National Smurfmeat Council
                    (")_(") Smurf, the original blue meat! © 1999, patent pending, ® and ™ (except that "Smurf" bit)

                    Comment


                    • If 'the proof is in the pudding', CFC's GOTM30 is a nicely timed test case: the SSC (New York) has one Silk and two hidden. I'm not done yet, but I'll try to write up a summary of the different stages of Grass/Silk/Wheat.
                      That's easy. You're going to start with mining the grass to Silk. 10 turns effort, best return on investment. From there, as somebody already said, you have more important things to forget than swapping out Silk for Wheat…
                      (\__/) Save a bunny, eat more Smurf!
                      (='.'=) Sponsored by the National Smurfmeat Council
                      (")_(") Smurf, the original blue meat! © 1999, patent pending, ® and ™ (except that "Smurf" bit)

                      Comment


                      • Just posting some notes on the Grass/Silk/Wheat issue:

                        Early/Mid game, Republic=80%Sci, SSC size 25, Lib,U,Cope,Newt:
                        - Silk generates 7-9 trade arrows, including TRs, which generate 36-42 beakers
                        - Scientist generates 18 beakers each
                        - Grass/Plains generates 3-5 trade arrows, which equates to 15-24 beakers
                        (more data coming soon)

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by rjmatsleepers
                          b) the extra beakers from larger delivery bonuses with silk.
                          This is the one that I am having the hardest time quantifying. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

                          Comment


                          • Later-Mid Game: Democracy=100%Sci, SSC sz 25, same Imp/WoW:
                            - Silk generates 8-9 trade arrows, or 48-54 beakers
                            - Scientist still 18 beakers each
                            - Plains 3-5 arrows, or 18-30 beakers

                            End Game: Democ=100%, SSC sz 30, add SuperHighways, ResearchLab, Colossus cancelled:
                            - Silk has 10-12 trade arrows, or 82-96 beakers
                            - Scientist now 24 beakers each
                            - Grass/Plains 4-6 arrows, or 32-48 beakers

                            I want to go back and investigate the short period between getting SH and RL but before Flight cancels Colossus, but the time scale on that is pretty short. It just looks good as the SSC has maximum number of trade arrows.

                            I'm still noodling over how to quantify the extra shields and bigger delivery bonuses of Silk vs Wheat. My gut feeling is that in early-mid game, gold is tight so go for maximum delivery bonuses; later on, once Refrig and SuperMarket add extra food, increase the Scientists in the SSC to get at least one tech per turn from city beakers using non-specials, then convert the Silk to Wheat as a last resort. Timing all of that takes lots of planning, though...

                            Comment


                            • Oh, and the loss of city beakers due to increasing Luxury rate for celebration needs to be factored in too.

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