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**Scouse Gits** · December 14, 2000, 12:19

Perhaps you are confused about the goal for any particular game? At some stage you must decide whether you are going to conquer or land a spaceship. It seems to me you are doing a bit of both!

Next game - don't build the GL - try the HG. Head for Democracy and SoL without useless techs slowing down your research. With SoL complete you can decide your game objective and pick the most helpful form of government to assist in your aim.

If you are going to conquer, try Communism first to obatin some useful military tech (Tactics/Steam Engine/Espionage) and then set research for Fundy. Once you have real Fundamentalism (change to Fundy government)you can swamp the AI with fanatics, whilst the vet spies from the Commie days can steal any outstanding science you require!

Others will advise you on a peaceful approach. If I need to build a spaceship I look in the Yellow Pages.

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SG (2)

**Edward** · December 14, 2000, 14:50

(Warning: I don't have ToT. In fact (try and remain seated for this) I currently only have Civ on a Playstation, not a real computer. Therefore take all my comments with a grain of salt.)

I totally agree with Scouse Gits. You need to choose spaceship or conquest in the very beginning.

It looks like you have no problem winning conquest on Emperor as a fundamentalism (or at least conquering and beating everyone into submission until they're no longer a production or military threat then building a spaceship at your leisure - which is basically winning by conquest). However you don't like being a fundamentalist government since it's too easy and too distasteful.

Scouse Gits has some good commentary on a military route. However, it seems you'd like to be a peace loving spaceship builder if only the sword-rattling AI would let you.

There are two issues that need addressing: 1) faster research and 2) obnoxious AI.

1) Relying on the Great Library for technology will keep you on par with the AI for research. That could be ok if you're minimizing your research to instead build units and clobber the enemy, but in your case it seems that you want to be AHEAD of the AI in research. Here the Great Library will actually IMPEDE your research by giving you techs you don't need which (due to the game's programming) will require you to get more beakers to get the tech you do need since the number of beakers required for a new tech is based on the number you already know. As Scouse Gits suggested, you need to streamline your research path.

I'm sure you can get lots of suggestions on a good path to take. Basically you need to bypass techs unless they give you a tech wonder, a needed happiness wonder, or a needed defensive unit (no you don't NEED pikemen). This was really hard for me to learn while moving up in game levels. I had to learn to avoid techs that were very useful but not VITAL to my quest for Space Flight. Want to build a bridge across that river? Too bad. Wait until it's Darwin time before getting Bridge Building. Getting it earlier will delay Shakespeare, Democracy, Issac Newton, and other important items. Oh, and don't trade for stuff that's not absolutely necessary either ('though from your post, this isn't a problem in ToT).

Try Monarchy, Bronze Working (Colossus and Phalanxes), Philosophy, Astronomy (Copernicus), and Monotheism (Michaelangelo). Then you're ready for Republic/Democracy and lots of trading.

Researching towards or building unnecessary wonders is also drain on your research power. You'll need to avoid wonders that you used to build every game.

Don't build Marco Polo since the AI doesn't want to trade with you anyway.

Try a game without Hanging Gardens. Build settlers in unhappy cities and make a bee-line for Michaelangelo.

The AI (at least in my version) isn't too desirous of J.S. Bach's, so you can delay Theology until your Civ has grown beyond temple, courthouse, and Michaelangelo's pacifying abilities.

It looks like you already know the power of trade routes (another huge lesson I had to learn while going up in game levels). As Apolytoners say - after you've build enough caravans, build some more.

2) Expand and settle everywhere you can without fighting. (You don't need to colonize every deserted island. A contiguous kingdom a single land mass will be easier to defend.) Then hunker down. Build city walls on your border cities, and some fortresses on hills/mountains on your borders. It's much easier to defend fortified places than to take an AI city. If you find yourself moving military units into enemy land then you are engaging in an unnecessary offensive that's draining resources from your research. An offensive war on your part is devistating to your research momentum.

If ToT AIs are that vicious, you may have to resort to trading with your own cities.

In short - no unnecessary techs and no offensive strikes.

**East Street Trader** · December 14, 2000, 15:24

I only switched to Fundy to polish off the AI once for exactly your reason. The challenge disappeared and the game got dull.

Agree with SG. You are backing both sides against the middle. Read Paul's OCC guide. You will be impressed with the intensity of the focus. No side paths are pursued. Every step is one full stride down the fastest route to the desired end. That is what I now seek in a game. If I can look back and say to myself that the method adopted to get to the chosen objective was lean and mean I'm happy.

In peaceful strategies good defence will help. Use the terrain. If you perch a defensive unit (stacked with some other unit to prevent bribery) on a mountain, hill, or rivered forest on the AIs territory it will soon be surrounded by piles of AI dead. If you can get a settler unit to the spot, make a fortress and add a second unit, offensive or defensive better still. What you are doing is to sap the productive advantage of the AI without exposing your cities and without having to devote too much of your own production to the generation of units.

Getting the chance to do this depends, in part, on good exploration. I am never happy until every last square on the map is revealed and, from the outset, I watch out for choke points and for the chance to occupy good defensive spots which will sap the warlike civs.

Later on (subject to democratic constraints) be ready to ship in units to do this job on mountains close to AI cities on foreign continents.

If you are not staying ahead of the AI in research (even with their exchange techs like crazy advantage) you are neglecting trade. Get some local trade routes in early. It is very nice to pick up a large bonus in money and beakers when a long foreign route goes in. But a local route between two of your own cities is quicker and safer to establish and starts underpinning your research with a turn by turn accrual of arrows which continues paying off throughout the game. Don't worry if the route produces no arrow when first established. These are cities which will grow and the arrows will start to come. And when you've got the early ones in - get some more in in the early middle game too. And when that's done - well get some more in for the cities you establish or take later on. And while this is going on take opportunities to upgrade the early routes too. If I'm playing peacefully I'm not happy unless every one of my cities (whether I've got 20 or 120 or 220) have three routes each.

A small but satisfying point is this. You will want such of your cities as produce goods it demands to trade with your SCC but commodities (especially high paying ones like silk or wine) from the SCC really deserve to go off to a distant foreign city because the one time bonus on those is so very worth having. So approach trade from that city in this way. First built one or two caravans there, starting with the highest paying commodity. Plan where they are going to be delivered. Ideally you want a foreign city on a different landmass which is a decent size (maybe Aztec or the like), demands the commodity and has access to river squares. You won't want to be too tardy but a little delay to find the right place to go is not a disaster. But meanwhile, before those caravans are delivered (and hence before your SCC's trading needs begin to be fulfilled), establish routes from your lesser cities to the SCC. Only then deliver the SCC's own caravans providing them with such protection along the way as you can. This maximises the bonuses from delivering demanded commodities from and to the SCC.

I have read of re-homing caravans but the manual says this can't be done so I have always treated that as a programming glitch and don't do it.

If you are devoting a sufficient attention to trade you will always stay well ahead of the AI in research and won't need GT. There is an argument for building it to deny it to the AI but I don't bother. You get far enough ahead that it doesn't really matter that the Library, for a time, slows down the rate at which you are forging ahead.

Try to keep the AI diplomats and spies at bay with well placed fortresses on defensive terrain two or three squares away from your cities on or beside its roads.

There are many more things to say but, as will already be apparent, questions of priority arise from all the competing aspects - units needed to block and sap, caravans needed to establish routes, different techs needed for different purposes. Looking at your post I think SG has really made the right point about priorities. Your balance is off because you are going for too many wonders which don't complement each other quite enough (plus the trade point if I am right that you don't give it enough priority).

So ditch an unneeded wonder or three, put in some more routes and I reckon that before you know it you'll be arriving for dinner in Valhalla on Alpha Centauri with plenty of time for a cocktail.

**Rufus T. Firefly** · December 18, 2000, 03:30

Wow! Thanks for the responses, guys! I love this place!

I think you're right: my strategy is unfocused. It hasn't been in the past. I've learned a lot of stuff since hanging out here, and one of the things I've learned is the importance of unimpeded progress through the tech tree. This is why it pains be to build the Great Library, and it occurs to me that maybe it would have been more useful if I explained how I lose rather than how I win. Remember, the strategy I was describing is actually a winning strategy...just not one I like.

The problem with focusing just on an AC landing is that, when I do, one of two things seems to happen: a mid-game loss or a late-game loss. They happen thus:

Mid-game loss - Off I go, making my way through the tech tree. I've got bronze working and built the Colossus; I've got Monarchy and switched governments; I've got Astronomy and built the Observatory; and I'm working on Polytheism on the road to Mike's. That must mean it's time to meet the AI civ that used it's first techs to instead get Feudalism, build Sun-Tzu's, and research chivalry! Those are vet knights sitting next to my not-so-super-science city, and the best unit I have is a phalanx. Show's over, folks.

Late-game loss - Woo-hoo! I've blown through the tech tree, thanks to an awesome SSC, a strong democracy, well-founded cities, and a little bit of luck. I've managed to build the Apollo Program before the next-most-advanced civ has even discovered flight. It must be time for that big, rich fundy government I've been appeasing all game to send tons of spies swarming all over my empire, stealing every spaceship related tech, and embark on their own space program. The race is on, and with less money and fewer cities in which to build components, I'm a pretty sure loser (unless, of course, I can build up a military and sack the enemy capital in just few turns - and the capital doesn't get moved on me).

Repeated occurrances of one of these two scenarios has led me to develop the lame-o strategy, in which I spend mid-game weakening the strongest AI civs so that they pose no threat later in the space race. Like I said, it works; I just hate it. And while I see the logic and virtues of the strategies you all suggest, I guess I don't see why they don't fail the way they do when I try them. How do you keep the AI at bay?

Thanks again for all the input; I'd certainly welcome more!

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Dig trenches, with our men being killed off like flies? There isn't time to dig trenches. We'll have to buy them ready made. Here, run out and get some trenches.
-- Rufus T. Firefly, the original rush-builder
[This message has been edited by Rufus T. Firefly (edited December 18, 2000).]

**Scouse Gits** · December 18, 2000, 05:58

Rufus - next game try playing for a win by conquest. See life through the other end of the telescope! Build the wonders you never usually consider, like Sun Tzu or the Wall! Enjoy your vet Knights as they prowl around AI cities. I bet you win ... but understand why you win! This should help when you return to a more peaceful approach.

Whatever type of game you play use offensive defence! In the early game horseman are great defenders as they can come out and kill enemy elephants/catapults before they hurt your cities.

I try to pick a high production city and build a barracks there ... this place produces vet units (on four legs) for the rest of the empire.

Consider building MPE. You can find out which advances the AI is researching, and by exchanging maps your diplomats know where to sail!

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SG (2)

**East Street Trader** · December 18, 2000, 10:33

Even in a game where Alpha Centauri is the aim and peaceful expansion/development via democratic gov.t is the main game you can't tolerate over-powerful neighbours. In both your mid game and late game loss scenarios you seem to have done so.

You can do a great deal to stifle, frustrate and sap your AI neighbours without resorting to all out war.

Find him early, build your cities out towards him (to deny him lebensraum), provoke war and drain his production. If you don't expect to conquer him early then build a Maginot Line to keep him away from your heartlands.

And look for chances to undermine more remote AI civs too.

Your lead in research opens several windows of opportunity during the game where the peaceful expand/developer can indulge in a short period of conquest without needing to distract himself with building more than half a dozen (or less) offensive units in order to do so. The arrival of musketeers may be one, ironclads another and riflemen a third. Also, of course, the howie. Bribery is a useful tool at all times. AI civs without Bronze working are fair game in the opening phase.

You want to stay in democracy throughout so, if you want a small navy and army with which to harrass the AI, you need to develop ways to avoid unhappiness problems. "None units" are one answer (early huts or bribing remote barbarians) but building Shakespeare's Theatre is probably the most secure and easiest. I always put it in a coastal town (ideally with lots of grassland and ocean - it's going to get shields from an offshore platform). Now home your army/navy/merchant marine in this city.

Keeping spies at bay late on is one of the harder skills. My methods depend on fortresses, vigilance and constant reconaisance. The advent of the fighter helps. Luckily (or unluckily depending on how you view it) the AI doesn't seem to be programmed to mask the movement of its spies. Nevertheless offensive defence is assuredly the name of the game at this stage.

The AI production advantage is at it's most telling in the space race. If you've been able to do little or nothing to cramp the style of one or two distant AI civs you are going to require, on a large map, at least half a dozen fully developed cities producing 80 shields and another dozen (prefereably more) producing 40 shields a turn. A dozen producing 40 shields a turn may be enough on a small map. Now it is that the question whether you have expanded and developed effectively enough to justify your strategy will be answered.

Do you know about using freights to build space ship parts? You can switch from building a wonder to building a spaceship part with no penalty. So you may sometimes wish to store some freights, use them to part build a wonder, then switch. But this is just an aid. IME nothing substitutes for that big industrial complex that you've spent the game developing.

Good space ship building is a feature. The AI often builds rather lumbering craft which can be overtaken en route. So study up on the fastest craft.

**Tesla Picasso** · December 18, 2000, 11:38

I agree with Scouse wholeheartedly. For me, playing an offensive defense is crucial to going for the spaceship. If warriors from a neighbor who is at peace start to wander across my turf I usually insist that they be withdrawn; this of course leads to the declaration of war; I then destroy the unit prior to it attacking my city. Maybe pick up a few cities and a wonder or two in the process. Not exactly peaceful, but if they want war, I'll give it to 'em!

It occurs to me too that sometimes if you are agressive in your defense you sometimes get to choose the battlefield, so to speak, and cause the AI to focus it's energy where you wish to rather than where it may choose. This can protect other cities/areas.

"It's a good thing that war is so terrible, otherwise we may grow too fond of it." --Robert E. Lee at Fredericksburg

"'Course if they did it all with pixels and nobody really got hurt, it would be a real hoot!" --Robert E. Lee mumbling to himself later that night as he drifted off to sleep.

**Rufus T. Firefly** · December 19, 2000, 07:31

Thanks again, everybody! All your advice is great here, but I have to admit it may be a small thing that helps me change my game: I never think of building Shakespeare's Theatre (except when I've tried OCC)! It's one of my bottom 5 Wonders (along with the Tower, Darwin, the Oracle, and of course the Manhattan Project). It had never occured to me to use one city to churn out my military (SG's suggestion) and build Shakespeare in it to counter the unhappiness problem under democracy (EST's). Brilliant!

I'm off to keep trying. Thanks again!

------------------
Dig trenches, with our men being killed off like flies? There isn't time to dig trenches. We'll have to buy them ready made. Here, run out and get some trenches.
-- Rufus T. Firefly, the original rush-builder
[This message has been edited by Rufus T. Firefly (edited December 19, 2000).]

**debeest** · December 20, 2000, 02:56

One added tip about Shakespeare. Don't build your barracks there, because you won't actually build your units there; you'll be homing units there that were built elsewhere, in high-production cities with barracks. Counter to EST's advice, I'd make sure I built Shakespeare somewhere that will produce plenty of shields early on, so you can support all those units.

**Rufus T. Firefly** · December 20, 2000, 06:03

quote:

Originally posted by debeest on 12-20-2000 01:56 AM
One added tip about Shakespeare. Don't build your barracks there, because you won't actually build your units there; you'll be homing units there that were built elsewhere, in high-production cities with barracks. Counter to EST's advice, I'd make sure I built Shakespeare somewhere that will produce plenty of shields early on, so you can support all those units.

Okay, now I'm confused again (that didn't last long, did it? ). If I'm building Shakespeare in a high-shield city anyway, and if my miltary units are going to have to at least pass through that city in order to be re-homed, why wouldn't I use it for unit production? After all, the presence of Shakespeare means it doesn't need a temple, a colosseum, a market/bank/exchange, etc. I'd want to build a factory and an offshore platform when they become available, but otherwise it seems like it would be ideal for cranking out units -- not exclusively, of course, but certainly primarily. What am I missing?

------------------
Dig trenches, with our men being killed off like flies? There isn't time to dig trenches. We'll have to buy them ready made. Here, run out and get some trenches.
-- Rufus T. Firefly, the original rush-builder

**lord of the mark** · December 21, 2000, 17:33

please clarify why i dont need pikemen.

is it that defensive advantage of pikemen is only against mounted units, and horsmen and chariots are not a threat to phalanxs, and by the time knights come around i should be upto musketeers, assuming i've managed my science correctly?

**Edward** · December 21, 2000, 18:09

lord of the mark,

Perhaps I was a little too emphatic in my "(no you don't NEED pikemen)". I was trying to streamline a tech path for a peaceful science type civ. In doing so, I wanted Rufus T. Firefly to avoid any tech that wasn't absolutely necessary.

Against the AI, you can generally do well with just your phalanxes and maybe some counter-attacking units (elephants perhaps). I generally delay feudalism until I need J.S. Bach's Cathedral. That way I don't know an extra tech which would slow down my research of Astronomy (Copernicus), Monotheism (Michaelangelo), the Republic, etc.

I guess I was saying that there are very few instances (especially in the early game) where you need to research techs solely to get better defensive units.

I'm sure pikemen are very nice people and great to have around in certain circumstances.

**Dissident Aggressor** · December 22, 2000, 02:26

also I wanted to make a remark on your midgame loss. I may not be the most qualified because I suffer similar problems as you. And this thread has been most helpful in that regard. But you mentioned fortified vet knights outside your ssc with only a phalanx to defend. A key here is to keep them out of your territory completely. Your ssc should be in the middle preferribly on a river. Some games I'm really vigilant at keeping the ai out of my territory. Some games I lack the necessary units to do so. I'm torn between exploring outside of my territory and preventing enemy units from entering. But it is of #1 importance to never let those vet knights get within 3 squares of any of your good cities. Because it is too hard to make up, even if you lose a good city for 3 turns. Because you have to rush build several knights/crusaders to take it back.

My main problem is I build too many things in my cities I think. I do not build enough caravans or military units (when in democracy). I tend to build as many improvements as possible in my good cities. Should I be doing this? I tend to build library, temple, marketplace, bank, granary, aquaduct, sewer system, harbor (if appl.), coloseum (if necessary), and factories, manf. plants in every single one of my cities. Is this a waste?

[This message has been edited by Dissident Aggressor (edited December 22, 2000).]

**Rufus T. Firefly** · December 22, 2000, 10:14

D.A., I agree that an SSC would ideally be located at the center of the empire, but it's not always possible; since I start building the Colossus once I have 4 cities up and running, it's hard to tell how things are going to develop. In my latest game, for example, the SSC ended in being the SE corner of the empire, which was able to spread north and west easily but bumped up against the ocean and the Indians in other directions. Besides, I like to build an SSC on the ocean, for the arrows and the access to overseas routes; and it's much harder to stop those vet knights when they get to my territory via caravel, especially if I don't even have triremes yet.

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Dig trenches, with our men being killed off like flies? There isn't time to dig trenches. We'll have to buy them ready made. Here, run out and get some trenches.
-- Rufus T. Firefly, the original rush-builder

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