Critique my upper-level SP strategy

[lord of the mark]

sorry edward, i didnt mean to sound confrontational.

I have taken a break from civ while dealing with certain computer problems (dont ask!!) and am looking forward to returning and jumping from king level to empire level. I really want a strat that will work at empire level - i tend to be peaceful (but not rigidly so) and moderately expansionist.

So i really liked your advice about having a more focused tech plan - I think it could really help me.
BUT - i reviewed the poster and was flustered - getting to demo in particular (not to mention gunpowder)requires invention, which requires a whole bunch of otherwise unnecessary techs, including feudalism.

So i take it you suggest a quick rush to republic, not demo. bronze working for the phalanxes, and to head on toward currency and for colussus - head straight for monarchy.
follow the mysticism - poly - phil path to monotheism.
(using phil for the free tech along the way. Get literacy, (for Republic) but not to build GL. Build Oracle if surplus production - since its the only happiness wonder on path to monotheism (i wont get HG if im this disciplined) Also oracle will last longer without aiming for theology. BUt better copernicus.

Hopefully get fairly quickly to republic, with SSC with Colussus and Copernicus, phalanxes for defense, and oracle and mikes for happiness. Or skip oracle and keep cities small until mikes.

Will try this on map designed for early peace (large, or with few civs - or isolated position on real world map)

[Dissident Aggressor]

I'll bump this thread as well. But I may just have to be non-lazy and break out my poster . I've been playing from memory for a while now, and I think my memory is getting worse . Because it seems to be taking longer and longer to get to democracy for me. I need to develop more focused tech strategies as well. Mine is way to broad based.

[Maelhavok]

Hello Civ2 fans,

While I do not have TOT, I do play 2.42\raging\7\diety and I ALWAYS win with a very similar stragedy. I enjoy the strategic deployment of my men(the plan) and the tactical aquisition of my goals(the execution of the plan).
Rufus, when in fundy build dips as well as strikeforce. Take enemies palace, buy cities. When you have Leo this is incredibly effective. Buy a city, get a tech, upgrade all units in city, take another city. It is very rare for the AI to get to steam engine before I've conqered the world.
I agree with Tesla Picasso (Great handle) about choosing your ground. Experiment with the tactics available with the lay of the land. (e.g. choke points ((land and sea)), canal cities, enemies undefended terrain etc. Also, with choosing your ground comes choosing your time. Fight WHEN you want to, when you're ready. If you are going to conquer, but not ready and vet knights are at your door, give tech\tribute and sue for peace and bump that civ to #1 on the conquest list.
I also agree that fundy through SOL is powerful but not too powerful. With GL and Leo it is TOO powerful. Unstoppable. Great fun.
Merry Holidays,

Maelhavok

[Edward]

lord of mark,

I'm still working on a good tech path for a peaceful civ with it's eye on space travel. My biggest problem is early happiness. My greed for tech wonders can make me loose out on the early happiness wonders.

I wait to go republic/democracy until I've done all the expanding I want. Before I finish expanding, I can keep pretty good happiness by making more settlers in upset cities. ("Not happy in Veii? Why don't you start your own darn city!") Once you leave monarchy, the settlers are too hungry to effectively expand through making new cities.

You're right, I hit republic before democracy. You've got my progression pegged.

1) First and foremost Monarchy - switch governments.

2) Next Colossus (with phalanxes being a great side effect).

3) Now on to Philosophy for a free tech. The AI is pretty good at grabbing for Philosophy, so get it early. One could argue that getting Philosophy first costs me two unneeded (at least this early) techs - Writing and Literacy. I have to concede that this is a good point. Maybe I should surrender the "Golden Age of Enlightenment" to the AI? On the other hand you need Mysticism and Philosophy for Copernicus and Michaelangelo. Now I'm not sure of my stand on this.

4) Trade. Early expansion is so important that I don't make many, if any, trade routes until my civ is fully expanded. However, my whole civ comes to a grinding halt when I can build a new wonder. When I'm building a wonder, it's max taxes and have all the cities make caravans to build it quickly (and for this you need Trade).

5) Hanging Gardens. This wonder will make early expansion so much easier. All your workers are happy and productive. However the AI loves the Hanging Gardens. If you don't get it quick it's gone. It's really tough to get Colossus, Hanging Gardens, and Copernicus's Observatory because the AI likes all three (well maybe it's not so keen on Colossus but you can be sure they'll switch to it if you beat them to others. Bronze working is so well known.). I don't go for the Oracle because it requires temples to be effective. My cities generally have no improvements until much later in the game. Founding new cities is oh-so-important that I hate to switch from settlers even to help build a wonder much less a city improvement. Sometimes I skip the Hanging Gardens to really streamline the tech path. When I don't build Hanging Gardens then almost half my population is composed of despondent entertainers composing depressing alternative music and waiting to become settlers to shuffle off and found a new dismal dust bin of a city (at least until Michaelangelo).

I like J.S. Bach since it's kind of like a late Hanging Gardens that never expires. I admit that, unlike the Oracle, I have to trade for Feudalism and research Theology to get it (thus adding two additional techs to my tree, three if I get stuck with Warrior Code as well). You can delay J.S. Bach until it's really needed since the AI has little desire for it. As you noted, including both J.S. and Oracle in one's tech path seems madness (due to Theology reducing the Oracle's power to that of a daily horoscope).

6) Copernicus's Observatory (the AI will try to build this before Michaelangelo and I don't want to lose it)

7) Michaelangelo's Chapel (with elephants/crusaders as a nice side effect)

8) Shakespeare's Theater - so you can have a huge Super Science City without any happiness improvements or entertainers. The AI is keen on this one.

*) Once you have all your cities founded and have Michaelangelo's Chapel it's time for republic, mass starvation, a few temples, and on to greatly increased trade. I linger in Republic until I can get some temples built, pull in wandering military units and boats, and get happiness under control. Then we can take advantage of Democracy to "We love" up the population and dramatically increase trade/science.

Going Republic before Democracy isn't too much of a tech detour from Democracy. I go Republic so late that I can trade for it with an enlightened AI. You're right about Democracy requiring a lot of extraneous techs ('though Leonardo lovers have Invention at the heart of their tech path). If you don't mind losing Leonardo you might be able to trade for Democracy after the AI builds the Statue of Liberty (Statue of Fundamentalism?) You know when Invention/Leonardo/Democracy is on the way because the AI must build King Richard's Crusade as soon as it gets Engineering. Sadly you need to eventually research or trade for Physics and Invention since they're needed for Railroad.

It's almost like there are a three distinct early tech branches for the scientist (the tech tree looks totally different to the early conqueror). The Astronomy, Philosophy, Monotheism branch. The Bronze Working, Monarchy, Trade, Republic, Medicine branch. And the long string of junk to Invention, Democracy, Railroad. The problem is you have to research all three branches before the tech tree narrows at Railroad. I invariably hit a point where I've built all the nice wonders on the first two branches and have to spend some time racing up junk techs to catch up with the AI on the third branch. I bet you multiplayers have a clearer view on these early branches if you trade with human allies going down different branches.

Also, once all my cities are founded, all my cities produce caravans almost exclusively ('though there are always emergencies...)

9) Issac Newtons' College

10) Adam Smith's Trading Company

There's not as much decision making to do tech-wise after this point. In a single player game all the peaceful civs will run down the list of railroads, engineers, factories, freight, and Hoover Dam on their way to Space Flight.

[lord of the mark]

edward

I liked that so much i printed it out. I suspect it will lead to problems on deity, but it should help me on emperor.

thanks
Lord of the mark

[Rusty Nail]

Steal.Steal.Steal. That is best strategy against AI's that won't trade, including diety where I play. Forget GL. There are usually some who will trade. Use them. You won't avoid a war. Just make sure you have vet musketeers behind walls and you can hold off anything until you catch up.

[The Mad Viking]

There are two schools of thought on Colossus vs Hanging Garden. In Deity, it is hard to get both. I choose Colossus, and build temples sooner, also use settlers to slow city growth, and entertainers for a few turns if necessary.

I strongly suggest you go for trade right after monarchy. Trade is the key to good science and good gold. I build caravans like crazy. They also provide far more flexibility in wonder building. You can decide what city to put the wonder in later, and you can build walls or a unit in a threatened city at the last minute, if you don't start the wonder until you have a bunch of caravans built.

Isaac Newton asap.

Philosophy next, and Mike's Chapel.

You don't need Adam Smith unless you are going to AC. In a conquest game, you will get more benefit from using those shields for caravans / freights.

With electronics, espionage, and "ertillery", you're laughing. On a small map, conquest game, Hoover is a waste. Just build a hydro plant in 2 or 3 factory cities. Build cavalry, spies and ertillery, and you run the table in a few turns. Often as not, I don't bother with SoL, I go communism or fundy naturally. Trade, science gold, bribe cities.

Regarding losing middle or late game, you need to learn defence.

I rarely lose a unit, and will go a whole game without losing a city.

Recognize threats before its too late.

Use terrain and the AI's aggressiveness to your advantage. Few things give me as much pleasure as watching an AI hurl kamikaze units at a fortified veteran rifleman on a hill or mountain. It drains there production. It keeps them off your cities. Do the math.

Early in the game, I try to ally with one close neighbour. It makes life far easier. Its easy to tell when the alliance will be ending. Be prepared!

[Carolus Rex]

Hello everybody!

Here is a short description of a game I played some time ago. It may or may not contain some useful tips for an early landing.

Have to admit I haven't read the whole thread... Started at the top, but with so many long replies I decided to read Rufus' posts only (it is 4.30 AM over here so I hope I am forgiven for this nonchalant behaviour ).

Version 2.42, deity level (I also play king a lot nowdays, but I'm pretty sure this was deity level. Someone please tell me how I can check that afterwards?).

Played as the Spanish, had a total of 15 cities. This number was deliberately chosen to build the space ship structurals in one turn.

Capitol: Madrid, a size 28 city with only two fish as specials. The launching year (1710 AD) it generated (not too impressive) 1040 science beakers with science at 100%, two polluted squares and an AI catapult occupying one square.

The wonders (not necessarily in the order I built them): HG, Colossus, Lighthouse, Copernicus', Magellan's, Shake's, Leo's, Isaac's, Darwin's, Apollo (all in Madrid) and Mike's (in Seville).

14 temples, 2 libraries and 2 aqueducts (including the ones in Madrid). Hence 14 of 15 cities had temples, 2 had a library and an aqueduct in addition to the temple. All other standard improvements were built in Madrid only. The rest of the cities built nothing but settlers (in the beginning) and caravans/freights/ships. Almost all the caravans and freights were rehomed to Madrid.

From reading your first post, Rufus, it seems you start building a wonder when you discover the needed tech (BW and Colossus). Here is an alternative you may want to try:

i) Go for Trade as soon as you have researched the needed government techs. Pick BW as the non-gov tech that is almost always forced on you on your way to monarchy or republic (if you play humans go for Horseback Riding instead, unless you know you are on a small island). Then go for Currency and Trade. Meanwhile you build settlers and maybe some exploring unit(s).

ii) Once you have Trade, switch from almost completed settlers to caravans. How many and in which cities depend on how far away the cities are from your capitol and how many cities you have already. The capitol should be building a caravan and complete it the same turn that the 3 others arrive. Ideally (or against humans), you should time this with the discovery of the wonder tech, say Pottery which may be your choice after Trade.

iii) Move in all 4 caravans in your capitol to complete the wonder in one turn. Repeat ii) and iii) when building other wonders.

The advantages of this method are a) you can buy shields cheaper when building caravans rather than a wonder, b) you are more flexible if attacked by barbs or other civs and can change to military units without losing shields, c) a human civ with an embassy can't see which wonders you are building (later in the game anyway) and d) (important against humans) the wonder can only be sabotaged during one turn and there is only that turn you need to worry about someone else building it.

This is a very effective method. As you can see I built three contemporary wonders in my capitol (HG, Colossus, LH), very difficult if you build them the normal way.

This is getting way longer than I wanted it to!

Ok, short and sweet. This was a waterworld so I ship-shained to get caravans from Madrid to the Sioux (located at other islands) in one turn. For this I needed approximately 7 or 8 transports, placed 7 squares apart. Late in the game my science city filled about half the science box and I used 1 or 2 freights to fill the rest of it. The money I earned was spent on incrementally buying new caravans/freights, yielding 15 new ones each turn. Some of them used to trade with, others stored for later use (wonders and space ship building).

When I built the space ship I completed 15 structurals in one turn, one structural in each city. This is done by letting all cities start on a wonder (anyone that hasn't been built yet). Then I used freights to build 50 shields of the wonder, switched to a structural (which counts as a wonder so no shields are lost) and then I bought the remaining shields. After trading the whole game this was no problem (I had 22 906 gold after launching the ship in 1710).

After Plastics I built 3 components of each type and then 1 module of each type. The ship was thus 15-3-3-1-1-1, was launched 1710 with estimated arrival 1725 AD. This configuration was probably a mistake, before some date 15-1-1-1-1-1 is better. Although not guaranteeing 100% success officially, the ship does arrive with 100% certainty but with lower score. I have forgotten the "break point" date...

It is now 5 AM and this was way longer than I expected...

Good night!

Carolus

[Carolus Rex]

Just a clarification (I don't dare to edit the post! ).

Other players do see which wonders you are building, but only for that one turn you build it as opposed to when you have a city working on a wonder for 30-40 turns.

What I meant was that you can "prepare" the completion of a wonder by building caravans in advance for it. During that time no city will have "(building X)" after its name in your opponent's intelligence reports.

Of course, a clever opponent knows what you're going for anyway, but if there are many wonders available he will have to guess which one you want and face fait accompli (or check with his embassy that single turn). Still, this method gives away less than the "normal" one does.

Carolus

[This message has been edited by Carolus Rex (edited January 06, 2001).]

[Carolus Rex]

Awake again!

Another thing I left out. Of course, you use the same trick when you build components and modules. Start with an available wonder, move in 3 or 6 freights (for components and modules, respectively), switch to the space ship parts and buy the remaining 10 or 20 shields.

Carolus

[Rufus T. Firefly]

I really appreciate how generous everyone's been with their advice, and since you all have taken the time to contribute, I thought you might like to know how it's going.

I've now met my goal -- to win at Emperor without going either Fundy or Commie -- twice. The two games were very similar, though the second was far more successful than the first, resulting in a new high score. Here's what happened.

Having founded my capital in a promising spot, I began expanding. Here, two bits of luck helped: a horseman popped out of my first goody hut, and I found a chokepoint rather quickly and got a city set up there (on a river!). With my land now inaccessible to my neighbors (Carthage and Egypt), I concentrated on settling the land mass I was on, which turned out to be very fertile and capable of accomodating 15 cities with minimal overlap. Meanwhile, my chokepoint city was confining Carthage to a small peninsula and forcing the Egyptians to expand westward, toward the Mongols. Off I went through the tech tree: Bronze-Monarchy-Trade-Philosophy-Astronomy-Monotheism-Economics-Invention-Democracy-Gravity was the general idea, though I made a quick detour early on to get pottery when Monarchy was being withheld; I also got medicine in there somewhere, either right after Democracy or right after Gravity. My 15-city empire was a wonder of wonder-building, using caravans and freight liberally to help projects along, and I managed to build (in this order) Colossus, the Gardens, the Observatory, Mike's, Adam's, Leo's, Newton's, Shakespeare (in my chokepoint city, Antioch, which was now free to churn out military units with impunity), Bach's, the UN, the CfC, SETI, and Apollo. 15 cities seemed enough for a successful game, and I was content to concentrate on internal improvements while building up a sizeable military force in Antioch. All was quiet until the middle of the nineteenth century, when Egypt and Carthage became troublesome; so I rolled out the military and spies I'd been building up, both empires were eliminated, and twelve more cities eventually flew the banner of mighty Persia (this took longer than it should have, thanks to my meddling Senate). This, alas, gave me a border with the Mongols, who immediately began stealing technology, thus provoking war; in a few short turns they were eliminated, too. With peace again at hand and all the spaceship technology discovered, there was nothing left to do but set science to 0% (which still gave me discoveries every 7 turns, thanks to my SSC), jack luxuries up to 90%, finish the spaceship and head to AC.

It was a lovely game. Thanks again, everybody.

------------------
Dig trenches, with our men being killed off like flies? There isn't time to dig trenches. We'll have to buy them ready made. Here, run out and get some trenches.
-- Rufus T. Firefly, the original rush-builder
[This message has been edited by Rufus T. Firefly (edited January 08, 2001).]

[Edward]

Congrats, Rufus. Wonderful game. I would be well advised myself to bash some AI heads along the way to keep them from getting too powerful.

Congrats, Carlos. I've never even approached a launch in the 1700s. Maybe I spend too much time in the beginning building cities when 15 or so will do. Also, I like your "build wonders with caravans" idea. I didn't realize that not only is that more flexible, but costs fewer coins to rush build as well. I think I'll research Trade earlier in future games. Thanks!