We love the 'X' day - a crutch for the weaker player?

[Crustacian]

I missed your point on heads.

quote:
Originally posted by Venger on 05-09-2000 10:01 PM
Disagreement I can take.
Venger

So let me get this straight: When you get offended by someone who dissagrees you slap em and take their head off? Or do you take their head off first then slap em?




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The journey itself is the thing~Odysseus

[Venger]

quote: <font size=1>Originally posted by JERandall on 05-10-2000 09:53 AM</font> God, Venger, we are all *so* impressed at your Civ-playing abilities. All the rest of us whining, WLT_D-using, luxury-whoring, spy-pimping weaklings are completely unable to compete with your pure and viruous method of play.

What a jack ass. Do you have anything to add to the thread besides your overpowering ignorance?

quote: I bow at your feet and request that you enlighten me with you infinite wisdom about how the game should be played. I will never again move a unit or build anything without first asking you, Venger, if doing so is acceptable in the Pure and Virtuous Method of Civ-Playing.

What are you, 12 years old?

quote: Have I made my point?

Did you have one?

quote: No? Did I at least amuse you? *No*?! Well, I sure as heck amused myself. :-)

I imagine you must do quite alot of that.

Venger

[This message has been edited by Venger (edited May 10, 2000).]

[Venger]

quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk on 05-10-2000 10:29 AM Because of my playstyle, which involves having twice as many settlers/engineers as cities (after the initial exapnsion), and buying economic improvements, I can get democracies into "perpetual WLT*Ds" fairly easily. I set lux to 20% and never change it after that; coupled with universal marketplaces, banks, and fully roaded terrain, most cities jump from three to eight in next to no time. Stock Exchanges typically push them to twelve, and superhighways often take them as far as they can go.

I do something very very similar, but my cities are usually large by the time I roll out the big happiness improvemets, so when WLTYYYD hits, I normally have mostly size 5 or larger cities, many up at 12. I also roll to Republic early, so early that 20% doesn't do a whole lot...I usually have to use 30 or even 40% to keep order during my first few turns of Rep. Now mind you, were talking early in the game...

Venger

[Venger]

quote: Originally posted by Bohlen on 05-10-2000 10:12 AM Wow. What a thread. I'm here late, but here goes. Bottom line...I don't think there is a way in which you can remove WLTLD from the game. Since it has been programmed within the core program and not within the text files there probably is no way to remove it, unless you are gifted enough to open up the program and actually rewrite it to your liking. How that is done is a mystery to me.

Not a chance of me doing it either...

quote: I hope that this topic was brought up as a legit topic and not as an attempt to "dethrone" AH by being more controversial and clever than he, because that's not possible. I think AH is the only person on these boards that can create such an uproar that people start getting pissed off at each other. It is his art and he is good at it. It's funny too. This thread is getting there, but it has a way to go.

Very legit topic. I had read numerous other threads with statements like "Once I WLTYYYD and grow all of my cities...". It just seemed so weak. That's why I posted it.

quote: Good topic nonetheless.

Thanks, I hoped for some more intelligent discussions, but these will have to do...

Venger
P.S. Your's is not one of the more inane posts...

[Venger]

quote: Yes, but my point is that you must be a good player to successfully pull off WLT_D. If a poor player could do it easily, then I would consider it questionable.

I guess I don't see how it takes a whole lot of effort to pull off. In fact, it seems rather easy if you are growing a thriving republic to simply bump the luxury rate to go into city swell mode.

quote: W/o WLT_D Rep/Dem's only adavantage is one more trade arrow per developed square. Disadvantages are many: senate, unit support, unit unhappiness, no martial law, gov't collapse potential, settlers eat 2 food.

That extra trade is huge. In addition, I also believe the rate of corruption is lower under Republic, removed under Democracy, and all bribery is disallowed. I consider those huge advantages.

I don't often play as Democracy, don't really know why, just tend to stay Republic, which fits my Romans nicely...

quote: But growth is much more explosive with ICS and you can do it much earlier in the game.

It depends on the level of ICS. If you consitently spew Settlers out of every city, that's one thing. I will build a city, build a warrior, build a settler, then another. The first settler builds a road or two, usually connecting in the general direction he will settle. The second settler is dedicated to improving its parent city, roads, mines, etc. Each city founds a child.

quote: Compared to ICS? No way. For ICS, just do the following: 1) Build Setter, 2) Found new city, 3) Build Warrior, 4) Repeat. Far easier and cheaper. Each city adds to population, science and production.

But the real key behind ICS is spitting Settlers out like Tic-Tacs. A city that produces 8 settlers and has 9 size 1 cities is working 18 squares, versus two size 5 cities working 12. ICS works best when the cities are kept minute. But - that usually precludes happiness improvements, preventing the move to Rep or Dem until much much later.

quote: You missed the first part I said. I want to play perfectionist, not warmonger. It is of course easy to reduce the AI to a few cities via war. At that point you can win any way you want. But if your going to do that, you are not playing perfectionist.

I've not always found it so easy, depending on the opposition and my luck at the start.

quote: So the Mongols spent their resources founding a bunch of small crappy cities while I spent my resources developing a few cities - and I should be punished with less trade, science, production? Why are the Mongols's 40 size 4 cities more valid than my 10 size 16 cities? We spent resources differently and achieved the same thing. I guess I don't see your point.

The Mongol cities don't stay at size 4. They will grow to become ridiculous size cities with 4 Mech Inf., 4 Cruise, and 4 Stealth.

quote: Of course the AI is not shy about doing this. In reality, most cities would require severe terraforming to grow into the 30's.

Yeah, but the AI sucks

quote: Disagree. The effects of ICS are immediate while preparing for WLT_D only pays off far down the road. As such, I would expect the rewards to be better.

They can be immediate, I just see it somewhat limited under deity rules and a Rep or Dem government. Now fundy can really rack up on the ICS...

quote: You lose half the value of a trade route by trading with yourself.

But the enemy loses all the value. Sorry, no trade for the enemy. I can pull in 500+ on late year trades domestically, and with trade arrows appearing in both the host and destination, the only one benefitting is me.

quote: But without growth, most infrastructure doesn't pay off. You can't afford 3 gold Banks, 4 gold Stock Exchanges, 3 gold Universities, 5 gold Superhighways, 3 gold Factories, etc. in size 8 cities. Why would you bother building any of them? You'd have to wait until 1950 for enough citizens.

I don't. Stock exchange is late. I go, later in the game, defender, temple, settler, settler, library, market, factory (may move up or down a tad), aqueduct, university, bank...etc. The city is grown progressively, and grows continuously. Each improvement tends to come at just the right time, sewer at 10 or 11, aqueduct at 8. Everything seems to gel. But man, if I peg those luxuries, once the basic infrastructure is in, I could clean house.

Venger

[Venger]

quote: Originally posted by Crustacian on 05-10-2000 01:05 PM You don't seem to be able to do as you say if you feel the need to "slap" someone when they dissagree as I did.

No, you asked if I had read the manual as someone asked. That's not disagreement, that's just being smarmy.

quote: You have an interesting point but you are not experienced with using WLPD and other posters replies shows they feel the same way.

I'm not experienced in fellatio either but you can be damn sure I know it ain't for me. Why does the fact that I don't use WLTYYYD somehow mean I have no valid point against it?

quote: My suggestion is give it a try, and maybe you will also see it as a strategy and not a crutch. I also said I did not think the logic you used in drawing your comparisons was consistant.

I've seen the trailing edge of it, and trust me, if I wanted to, I could engorge my cities with it. Not interested.

quote: That sums up my points if you want to take another stab at "slapping" me LOL. It is Crustacian with an "i" tho

It actually is beyachslapping, but the program edits out the naughty bits...again, only for the "did you read it like he asked?" crap...

Venger

[Crustacian]

quote:
"Why does the fact that I don't use WLTYYYD somehow mean I have no valid point against it?

Venger I said in the first place I respect your views and playing styles regarding not usings wlpd. I just don't agree.
I offered you to give it a try, no problem that you don't want to.

You admit you are not experienced at it thx for that.

The problem I have with what you said is in calling WLPD a crutch when it is a very valid strategy equal to any of your own.
Your own logic does not disprove this.
You want to belittle wlpd on bogus logic and lack of experience then maybe i might slap you around a leedle beet eh?

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The journey itself is the thing~Odysseus

[Crustacian]

There are some players who posted on this thread that no one on this forum would consider to be week players, and their style of play often includes the use of WLPD.

This alone shows that it is not a crutch.

I know that these players game does not rely on WLPD solely, as they are strong players due to their ability to be flexable acording to the situation at hand, and they realise that this is a growth game. Many ways to grow in CivII, and WLPD is a valid option.

My new suggestion to you is this: develope a strategy that will consistantly beat WLPD.
There are threads about how to beat ICS, so if you think it is so weak why don't you post a thread on how to whip a WLPD?



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The journey itself is the thing~Odysseus

[Ming]

Well, the best strategy for beating WLYD's (or ICS for that matter) in an MP game is simple. Find them early, and crush them

Works like a charm...

[Crustacian]

dang Ming!!
I would have to be a mongol to survive if you was my neighbor. I sometimes like to go on a rampage my own self tho. Some have really did a number on WLPD and ICS'r doing just as you said. The science program of the diplomat is supreme then too.

I tryed it and by the time I got their my units were outdated. There is some awesome growth in science that can go along with the increase in city size too. I tryed it again and on a large world did not find them!!!!! They found me and kicked my butt beeg time.
Got to find em quick or you are dead by the setback of raising an army while they grow.

Kindda like a game of paper sissors or rock. remember that game? rock crushes scissors, paper smothers rock, scissors cut paper, and two people clap their hands then show one of the three things in hand symbol at the same time to see who wins.

[Venger]

quote: Originally posted by Crustacian on 05-10-2000 08:35 PM quote: "Why does the fact that I don't use WLTYYYD somehow mean I have no valid point against it? Venger I said in the first place I respect your views and playing styles regarding not usings wlpd. I just don't agree.

OK...

quote: I offered you to give it a try, no problem that you don't want to.

Why are half of your sentences yoda-esque?

quote: You admit you are not experienced at it thx for that.

You keep repeating that as if it has some bearing. I've stated before, I can utilize it and make my game EASIER. That's why I don't use it. Why do you insist I use it then?

quote: The problem I have with what you said is in calling WLPD a crutch when it is a very valid strategy equal to any of your own.

I offered it as an opinion. Note the question mark at the end? It was a question leading an opinion. I still maintain it is a strategy leading to a quick and easy win. No I don't need to peg my luxuries to figure this out...

quote: Your own logic does not disprove this. You want to belittle wlpd on bogus logic and lack of experience then maybe i might slap you around a leedle beet eh?

What???

Venger

[Crustacian]

WLPD is as valid of a strategy as any ones you use. End of story.

It has well been shown by those commenting here that it is not a crutch for the weak so I think the "question" on your post was answered.

And this I do not agree with:
"I still maintain it is a strategy leading to a quick and easy win. No I don't need to peg my luxuries to figure this out...


It is not necissarily an easy win. Many things have to be balanced to pull off a win with other compitant players. You risk being overly vulnerable for the chance of very quick growth if you choose. There are many things to balance and yet try to remain flexable to deal with unpredictable things your opponants come up with.

You would have to do more than peg your luxuries to do it right.

The point about experience is that if you were familiar with the strategy more, you would not claim it as an easy win. If all you think is involved is uping the lux setting, then no wonder you see it as simplistic.

I am not sure why you associate my words with Yoda's I wonder whos words would you have associated Yoda's with when you first heard his?

I was teasing you back cuz of what you said about "took Crustacian's head off and slapping me or whatever that was all about. I got a kick out of that in view of how you said you could take dissagreement.

Did you really get your comments nuked?

Anyways to each their own, but that means to EACH--yours & others their own.

I don't like the cheat bug things either but if thats how others want to play who cares so long as if they play a game with me we all use the same rules.

I don't like 2x2x setting either but see it as just fine for those who like it.

So will you cough it up and admit that you may have underestimated the comlexity of using WLPD?
And even tho you don't like it for your expressed and valid reasons, you won't think those you end up playing with are weak players cus they like to use it?

When you see that END sequence as someone takes your last city you might then.

Otherwise you will be left with a fairly weak thing to say like "well dang! I would have won those games IFFFFF they would have played me "fair" and not used WLPD, or built that Shakespeares Theater to where that city never needed to worry about happyness......."

So I am not at all against playing a game where there is a luxury setting limit of say 20 or 30% tops instead of the 100% possible that the game designers built in as an option for us.

*****When you set up games where no one can max their civ out really quick that would be one way to do it. Agree to limit the luxury setting. You asked about this earlier BTW

I have enjoyed playing no wonders and no ai games for some of the same reasons you use regarding WLPD.
But there will allways be nothing like a good ol 1x1x raging, deity, full comp civs, and mutually agreed set of rules to play by.

Great times, funny chat, and time consuming but cheap intertainment

[Sieve Too]

quote: Part of my contention is that a good player should be able to win without what I consider a questionable strategy.

Yes, but my point is that you must be a good player to successfully pull off WLT_D. If a poor player could do it easily, then I would consider it questionable.

quote: Severe? I really find the restrictions are more than offset by the advantages, all without the population growth aspect of WLTYYYD..

W/o WLT_D Rep/Dem's only adavantage is one more trade arrow per developed square. Disadvantages are many: senate, unit support, unit unhappiness, no martial law, gov't collapse potential, settlers eat 2 food.

quote: Frankly, I find ICS more digestible than WLTYYYD,

But growth is much more explosive with ICS and you can do it much earlier in the game.

quote: too easy, and cheap.

Compared to ICS? No way. For ICS, just do the following: 1) Build Setter, 2) Found new city, 3) Build Warrior, 4) Repeat. Far easier and cheaper. Each city adds to population, science and production.

quote: Me:If you want to play a perfectionist style game, WLT_D is the only way to do it. How else can your 10 cities win against the Mongols' 40+ cities unless yours are larger? You: As the geniuses at Hasbro took the Mongols out of the Extended Game in ToT, I'm not sure...but against any aggressive Civ - find a way. Probe their rear (God that's an uncomfortable sentence to type). Attack en masse. Take and consolidate.

You missed the first part I said. I want to play perfectionist, not warmonger. It is of course easy to reduce the AI to a few cities via war. At that point you can win any way you want. But if your going to do that, you are not playing perfectionist.

quote: just seems too easy

So the Mongols spent their resources founding a bunch of small crappy cities while I spent my resources developing a few cities - and I should be punished with less trade, science, production? Why are the Mongols's 40 size 4 cities more valid than my 10 size 16 cities? We spent resources differently and achieved the same thing. I guess I don't see your point.

quote: it's growing it from 15 to 32 that really chaps my hide.

Of course the AI is not shy about doing this. In reality, most cities would require severe terraforming to grow into the 30's.

quote: No way. ICS is slower to develop

Disagree. The effects of ICS are immediate while preparing for WLT_D only pays off far down the road. As such, I would expect the rewards to be better.

quote: I never trade with a foreign city

You lose half the value of a trade route by trading with yourself.

quote: Isn't that part of good management under of Rep/Dem? I don't see city bloat as a piece of that puzzle.

But without growth, most infrastructure doesn't pay off. You can't afford 3 gold Banks, 4 gold Stock Exchanges, 3 gold Universities, 5 gold Superhighways, 3 gold Factories, etc. in size 8 cities. Why would you bother building any of them? You'd have to wait until 1950 for enough citizens.

[Scouse Gits]

If this thread has anything vaguely to do with Civ Strategy the connection defeats me. Could it please be moved to OT where it (and Venger) belong?

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Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor

[Ming]

It has everything to do with civ strategy since WLYD's are a legitimate civ strategy, no matter what anybody says