We love the 'X' day - a crutch for the weaker player?

[mindseye]

Cato has a good point. Improvements in diets and living standards, increased availability of consumer goods - it's not hard to think of the factors that enabled the "Baby Boom" as something analagous to moving the luxuries slider to the right. And it certainly affected our entire civ!

Regarding the growth rate itself, WLTxD cannot compete with the growth rate experienced by the city I live in during the decades following 1849!

I love that phrase "crutch for the weaker player" - I think my playing style requires a full-fledged walker!

- mindseye

[Venger]

quote: Originally posted by Tom DeMille on 05-09-2000 11:42 AM Maybe we should start threads like: Wonders - crutches for the weaker player? Caravans - crutches for the weaker player? More than 1 city - a crutch for the weaker player? Democracy/Fundy/Commie - a crutch for the weaker player? Not playing Multiplayer - a crutch for the weaker player?

Okay, so does this mean you actually have something to ADD to the thread?

quote: My point is, agains't the AI, even at Deity, there is nothing that is essential to winning. Skipping any particular wonder or government type will not make you loose.

How does that relate to the power of WLTXD and whether or not it's easy to abuse?

Venger

[Venger]

quote: Originally posted by Sten Sture on 05-09-2000 01:08 PM LoL - How about: Defensive terrain - Crutch for bad tacticians Instruction manuals - Crutch for bad improvisors Tranmissions - Crutch for bad drivers Money - Crutch for bad thieves

You are a singular wit.

quote: I can't believe this thread exists...

So SKIP IT. God people, if you have nothing to add, then freaking go DO SOMETHING ELSE.

If you think WLTXD is a perfectly reasonable tactic, used to good effect, so be it, please say so. If you think it's too powerful, too easy, then say so. But if you aren't very clever, but really think you are, feel free to post your LoL posts down at the local gay bar, or Homeless Shelter, or some other place...just not on this thread.

Venger

[Venger]

quote: Originally posted by Ming on 05-09-2000 02:02 PM Oh come on... give him a break. Everybody is welcome to their opinion. While I will disagree with him on whether the designers intended us to use WLYD's to crank up population, I have no problem with him stating that it could be considered a crutch. I will disagree with him on that too, but he is just stating an opinion.

Disagreement I can take.

quote: And what fun would be these forums be with out a difference of opinion

Apparently some of these guys are just amusing the hell out of each other...

Venger

[Venger]

quote: Originally posted by The Mad Viking on 05-09-2000 02:40 PM If you don't like WLT*D, don't use it.

Gee, you know, I NEVER thought of that. Jeez...

Has anyone noticed I've posted at least twice asking the best way to remove it from the game in the rules.txt or wherever? Trust me I DON'T use it...

quote: Next thing, you'll be complaining about building cities in mountains.

Why? You are appropriately handicapped by building in mountains.

quote: I usually don't use it myself. But the idea of recruiting people to your cities by with "social spending" or whatever is not unrealistic. The overall effects can be too extreme, but as everyone is saying this is a game, not reality.

I agree with the too extreme part. Again, it's not that WLTXD exists, but that it can be utilized to ridiculous ends. As to reality, I don't find it realistic within the scope of the game.

Venger

[Venger]

quote: But shouldn't a good player be able to win the game using the correct strategies?

Part of my contention is that a good player should be able to win without what I consider a questionable strategy.

quote: WLT_D is but one of many strategies. Like any strategy, you give up X now in the hopes of gaining Y later.

I'm not sure I'd call it a strategy, I'd more likely refer to it as a tool. Or crutch...

quote: Given the severe restrictions placed on Rep/Dem gov't, there needs to be some incentive to switching to these gov'ts.

Severe? I really find the restrictions are more than offset by the advantages, all without the population growth aspect of WLTYYYD...

quote: Why is growing your civ via WLT_D less valid than plunking down a large number of small cities?

I'm not sure why there is an attempt at a correlation between these two. Frankly, I find ICS more digestible than WLTYYYD, probably since I witness WLTYYYD firsthand and what it can do in my own Civ. I could add 10% more luxuries and explosively grow my Civ. But that's too easy, and cheap.

quote: If you want to play a perfectionist style game, WLT_D is the only way to do it. How else can your 10 cities win against the Mongols' 40+ cities unless yours are larger?

As the geniuses at Hasbro took the Mongols out of the Extended Game in ToT, I'm not sure...but against any aggressive Civ - find a way. Probe their rear (God that's an uncomfortable sentence to type). Attack en masse. Take and consolidate. Whatever. Sometimes you may lose. But saying "I know, I'll whore luxuries for 10 turns so I can double my size", just seems too easy.

quote: Also remember that unchecked population growth brings on pollution. Mass Transit and Hydro Plants are a long way off from Rep and Dem. So while you might get into the low teens with WLT_D, you are basically stuck there throughout the rest of the mid-game.

I imagine most of my problem with WLTYYYD is in the later game, maybe Railroad on, when most players should have good infrastructure of roads. It's not growing your capital from 5 to 9 that's so bad, it's growing it from 15 to 32 that really chaps my hide.

quote: In the area of realism, the "standard" method of population growth is exactly the opposite of what you expect in a real population, i.e. It takes more and more time for a city to grow each time a new citizen is added.

I find it most realistic. Diminishing returns applies here.

quote: You can accomplish the same thing with ICS.

No way. ICS is slower to develop, and is anathema to Rep/Dem. At least I would expect it so considering the higher city overhead required in those governments.

quote: Or capturing your neighbors cities.

Not the same.

quote: Or using Spies.

Another crutch - spy pimping.

quote: Or demanding tribute.

Not under these govs.

quote: Or sharing techs in an alliance.

What's an alliance?

quote: Or sending caravans across the seas.

I never trade with a foreign city. Unless I'm about to sack it...

quote: Also you are not correct in claiming that you are merely "taking 12 turns" to come out ahead. In truth, you must have already spent many dozens of turns setting up for WLT_D: a) building infrastructure, b) improving land, c) pursuing "peaceful" science goals. All the while you are making your civ more and more vulnerable because the above also implies: a) not building a good military, b) not settling and claiming new land, c) having obsolete units.

Isn't that part of good management under of Rep/Dem? I don't see city bloat as a piece of that puzzle.

quote: My experience in exactly the opposite. I find it much easier to win via conquest than via the space ship. In conquest games, I never bother with Rep or Dem. YMMV of course.

The first spaceship I ever built was in ToT. And that was only to go conquest THAT planet...

I played bloodlust only in Civ2. Why? Too easy to build the spaceship. Plus, spaceship, big whoop. Try landing 25 divisions on the Carthaginian homeland for a mass invasion. Now THAT'S a challenge...

Oh, and as to governments...I never play Communist or Fanatic. Blech. Just a moral hangup or something...kinda like never being able to play the bad guy in other games...

Venger

[The Mad Monk]

So, who wants to guess when the Horse is gonna trample this young'on for invading his territory (and successfully, I might add)?




------------------
The Mad Monk

"The capacity of a grass leaf to grow from the sheath
at its base is a useful adaptation to herbivore grazing.
It has also resulted, over the eons, in the piteous
spectacle of thousands of hominids vibrating behind
their lawnmowers from spring to fall."

-Someone's AP Biology Textbook

[Venger]

quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk on 05-09-2000 10:31 PM So, who wants to guess when the Horse is gonna trample this young'on for invading his territory (and successfully, I might add)?

Okay, I gotta ask, what are you talking about? This can't be to my credit I'm sure...

Venger

[Ming]

Oh... you may find out some day. But Alexander's Horse doesn't really hang out in the Strategy Section too much

Keep up the good debate

[Smash]

LOL

Civ2-crutch for weak gamers?

[rah]

Put me in the camp that it isn't a crutch. It takes a lot of resources and planning to set up. (especially if you don't get any of the happiness wonders) Some games I use it and some games I choose to go a different route. Just another strategy. Just like ship chaining. A lot of people whine about it but it takes valuable resources and good planning to set up and take advantage of it.
Just another strategy.

RAH
Just doing as Venger asked.

[JERandall]

quote: Originally posted by Venger on 05-09-2000 10:30 PM I played bloodlust only in Civ2. Why? Too easy to build the spaceship. [...] Oh, and as to governments...I never play Communist or Fanatic. [...] Venger

God, Venger, we are all *so* impressed at your Civ-playing abilities. All the rest of us whining, WLT_D-using, luxury-whoring, spy-pimping weaklings are completely unable to compete with your pure and viruous method of play.

I bow at your feet and request that you enlighten me with you infinite wisdom about how the game should be played. I will never again move a unit or build anything without first asking you, Venger, if doing so is acceptable in the Pure and Virtuous Method of Civ-Playing.

Have I made my point? No? Did I at least amuse you? *No*?! Well, I sure as heck amused myself. :-)


------------------
JERandall

[Bohlen]

Wow. What a thread. I'm here late, but here goes.

Bottom line...I don't think there is a way in which you can remove WLTLD from the game. Since it has been programmed within the core program and not within the text files there probably is no way to remove it, unless you are gifted enough to open up the program and actually rewrite it to your liking. How that is done is a mystery to me.

I hope that this topic was brought up as a legit topic and not as an attempt to "dethrone" AH by being more controversial and clever than he, because that's not possible. I think AH is the only person on these boards that can create such an uproar that people start getting pissed off at each other. It is his art and he is good at it. It's funny too. This thread is getting there, but it has a way to go.

Good topic nonetheless.

[The Mad Monk]

Because of my playstyle, which involves having twice as many settlers/engineers as cities (after the initial exapnsion), and buying economic improvements, I can get democracies into "perpetual WLT*Ds" fairly easily. I set lux to 20% and never change it after that; coupled with universal marketplaces, banks, and fully roaded terrain, most cities jump from three to eight in next to no time. Stock Exchanges typically push them to twelve, and superhighways often take them as far as they can go.

Oh, and Venger...look to the mountain cities thread in the Civ General Forum, and gain understanding (if not necessarily wisdom)...

[Crustacian]

quote: Originally posted by Venger on 05-09-2000 10:01 PM Disagreement I can take. Venger

You don't seem to be able to do as you say if you feel the need to "slap" someone when they dissagree as I did.

You have an interesting point but you are not experienced with using WLPD and other posters replies shows they feel the same way.

My suggestion is give it a try, and maybe you will also see it as a strategy and not a crutch. I also said I did not think the logic you used in drawing your comparisons was consistant.

That sums up my points if you want to take another stab at "slapping" me LOL. It is Crustacian with an "i" tho

If you "slap" me for this then your words mean nothing when you say you can take being dissagreed with



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The journey itself is the thing~Odysseus