A new way to determine a Winner

[Ming]

War4ever and I were chatting last night. For the "setting up IP games" group, we usually end up playing one nighters that last for only 4 to 6 hours. And neither of us really feel that the powergraph is the best way to determine who the "winner" was. It's usually just a good indication of who has the biggest population at that point in time, not the person who is in the best position to win the game...

So we were thinking... (always a dangerous thing)

Civ III MP at least has different types of victory conditions you can choose... like capture the flag.

Why can't we figure out some way to create different type of One Nighters to play, where specific victory conditions are used.

One thought would be to develop some type of point system that works better than the power graph... or come up with different types of games...

Just some examples and thought starters...

The Science race game... Set a time limit, and the winner of the game is the person with the most sciences...

The Distruction Game... The person who kills the most units wins...

Capture the Flag... The first person to TAKE two cities from another player wins...

Start playing the old Arena War games again... where you play two against two... there was never really any question at the end of one night who the victors really were...

The Trade Game... Who can establish the highest paying trade route wins...


Yeah, I know many of these are silly... But I want us to think "out of the box" and come up ways where there truely is a clear victory condition... or to come up with games that force you to play differently because what you need to do to win is different.

Thoughts... suggestions...

[Caesar the Great]

wonder race? who can build the most wonders? (or conquer them)

highest population or most money by a certain date? (say 1 ad)

most units?

or you could just fiddle with the rules.txt and make all the good (modern) units available much earlier - with double production that shouldn't be a problem, stealth bombers in 500 BC

[Ming]

Keep the ideas coming... hmmm... stealth bombers by 500 bc... Hmmmmm

[War4ever]

We could preapprove victory conditions....and the host would draw them out for the players.... the only drawback is the host would know of everyones differnt objectives

but if we could agree on these ahead of time it would be a new twist

[Ming]

It would be tough getting around somebody knowing them all... But not a bad idea. Just let everybody know what everybodies victory conditions are.

Or... create 5 different victory conditions...

Like first to 5 wonders...
First to take out somebodies capital...
First to invention...
First to take 4 opposition cities...
First to 20 cities...

And let the players race to whichever one makes the most sense based on their situation..

[War4ever]

other ideas, first to a size 21 city? or is that too high....

the first to the true SSC..ie colossus, cops and newton, meaning you can't use HG as your colossus this forces a player to make a choice on an early wonder

First to 2000g....which would be hard b/c we all blow our gold on expansion and caravans... again , another choice....this could be offset of course by early republic...then again, if you know what someones goals are, you may go all out to make sure they don't achieve these goals..

the person with the most land area uncovered...could mean a new look at naval uses?

[DrSpike]

First off I would say you will never come up with an effective alternative points system.......lets face it the players involved know who the winner(s) is/are, and all a points system does is encourage people to take advantage of that structure, like the old 2x2x King powergraph games.

But I love the themed games idea.......that could really make the game different week to week, and force a variety of game styles on each player.

[rah]

I like taking cities as a measure. But if we do that, there must be different points awarded based on terrain. And a bonus for taking his cap. This coupled with units destroyed would be acceptable to this ole war monger.

[oedo]

how about a scoring system for aiming defined goals and a bonus for aiming them first?
for example you can spread points for researching certain techs, establish a new goverment, building 5/10/20 cities, capture a city, being first winning a battle in a game, being first building a wonder in a game etc.
and how about this: a bonus for being the first reaching a goal must be claimed in the kings chat. no claim no points. so it´s up to you if you take the points or bluff your rivals. the latter could make sence if the scoring system is balanced out well.

[War4ever]

good thoughts Oedo...keep them coming people, eventually there will be enough ideas to banter back and forth about

[oedo]

let me have a try:

in the end of the game
each: scores

tech: 1pt
wonder, embassy: 3 pts
city 1-2: 5 pts
city 3-8: 10 pts
city 9-12: 20 pts
city >12: 40 pts
city >21: 100 pts


the following events can only be claimed, if no one claimed them before:

- first at researching: writing, poli, trade, invention, steam engine, whatever....
- first at 5/10/15/20 cities
- first ancient wonder unless it´s HG or GW/ first rennaissance/industrial/modern wonder (claims itself afa I remember )
- first trireme or ship
- first at population 100.000 / 1.000.000 / 10.000.000 /(...)
- first established monarchy/republik/(...)

the number of points you get rise with the number of claims made before.



the following events score automatically:

- battle won/attack only: one point for each destroyed unit
- city conquered: 2*size after conquering
- city destroyed: 1 point
- foreign trade route: 1 point each
- attacking a rival´s capital: 1 point
- attacking a unit on a mountain top: 1 point/ winning scores 5+number of units



the following events automatically decrease your number of points by one:

- unit/city bribe
- tech steal


just a blind try. looks complicated at first sight and is open for any negotiation since I don´t play in your group anyway.

enjoy

[Caesar the Great]

I'm personally a big fan of modern warefare (except spies of course)

A little tweaking to the rules.txt would make the game very different, air units, useful sea units and without spies (or even nukes) combat would be a lot more bloody, and so one person couldn't lose his entire empire in one turn

Max number of cities? No caravans?

Rationing the wonders before the game?

Or a cumulative point system based on who has the most 1st's on the democraphics every 10-20 turns?

I also like the idea of giving missions to people, and if the host knows about it, he can try to stop them from accomplishing it? Like say build or conquer a city on 3 of the following 5 squares (33,40) (3,21) etc. Could be interesting, like mission risk.

[rah]

Good stuff Oedo. My only concern would be that at then end of a one night session, all of us would be so trashed that we still wouldn't know who won.

[War4ever]

i like the mission risk concept, again, the host would know about all the possiblities....or, the other way to do is to have an independant person icq each person, wouldn't be hard, and tell them what they have to accomplish.....

ex..

caesar, decides that rah has to conquer wars capital, berz has to build 25 cities, war has to caputure any 5 cities on the map and ming has to (stop whining) build leos and ASTF...... then the host wouldn't know..

i think i like the idea of missions over a set amoiunt of points..... building cities is too easy, and we dont want to only emphasize war strats.....

thats why having 1/2 war missions and half "peacefull/scientific/economic" missions would be best

[Caesar the Great]

we would have to agree what relatively equal missions should be, and perhaps even offset some "host advantage" by giving the host a slightly harder mission?

if we could make a list of say 20-30 different missions which would be about equally difficult to accomplish, and have either the host or a non-participant decide who gets what missions.... could be a lot of fun