The Creativity of 2 x 2

[Ming]

Half the fun is the thrill of discovery and having to deal with what the game dealt you. I'm not a big fan of pre-made maps.

[War4ever]

Well like i said before.......premade maps will make for a fair starting position...but they do take away the discovery age of the game...

its a trade off

[Graag]

I tend to dislike premade maps, they can be fun if you just want a quick start for a duel but otherwise they just bore me. Civ is a nice random game, just how I like it.

[Ming]

Yes... the random part is what keeps the game fresh. Granted, in duels you need pretty equal starting positions... but in 3 or 4 person games, you can make up for a bad start, and screw up a good one

[War4ever]

and we have ALL been on both sides of that coin

[Ming]

I love when you get great land... You're in heaven... and then the next 3 huts give you sciences off the path, and you don't get monarchy until hell freezes over

So many factors come down to luck... whether it's land, huts, barbs, combat... an even starting positions doesn't mean an equal game.

At least in most games, the luck balances out in long run.

[War4ever]

actually its getting great land and going , Wow..stroke of luck, then you realize there are two neighbors on either side of you

[Ming]

Yeah... you send out your first two settlers in different directions, and they both meet other players...

ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

*time to consider map making*

[StrategicKingMi]

Unfortunately Civ can never randomly give fair starts. I put it at about 5% of the time starts are some what fair. And the really sad thing is , that if you look at a board, and replace the civs in fair spots, it can be done on virtually every board.
It would be interesting to have a "bank" on this forum of randomly created boards for duels, 3 player or 4 player games. where the civs have been physically placed by a human for fairness. This way, you can choose the pre-made map and if you trust the other player not to have looked at it, it can be both pre-made and unknown.
The really interesting part of this game was the 5 settler, monarchy start. This simply took hut luck off the table. If you get a tech from hut, your happy cause it does not screw up a government tech path and saves you time for having to do a tech. And if you get an early city/settler instead of 2-1 advantage, iots only a 6/5 advantage which is no big deal.
Toss in the fair start, even on a known board, where you can deign a strategy to go along with the fair ness, and you got potential for a great game..
Heres the starting board..It was a random board with opnly civs replaced.

[War4ever]

i totally see where premade maps are great.....but one would need a large data base of maps otherwise its only a matter of time before you "recognize" which map you are on....

find a way around that and you will have me sold

[Ming]

No matter how much you even out the start, luck still plays a roll. And I like that. It keeps the game from getting stale. An early barb king... a few mobile units early from huts... Barbs knocking out your early searchers or taking a new city... That's why I don't mind random starts (except duels... we reset a "few" times until both are happy)... there is enough other luck in the game.

[War4ever]

i guess the point is to limit the hut as much as possible and allow skill to shine through....

but part of skill is overcoming/enhancing some of the luck you pick up on the way

[Ming]

I agree... I don't consider a "set" game plan skill. That's just knowing "a way" to win. True skill is dealing with whatever comes at you, good or bad, and making the most of it. Your strategies need to vary as you adapt to the game. Having a single killer strategy that only works at one setting or if you get a good start isn't skill

[DrSpike]

I like premade maps generally.......for most RTS they are fine. I also think they offer the best chance of a fair start. Despite all that I still prefer random maps in games like civ......the spirit of discovery is just so intrinsic to the game. Over time the better players will make the most of their good starts and hopefully minimise their bad ones.......some would even say that is a large part of MP.

[War4ever]

truer words were never spoken spike...as usual with your eloquent little twist