The History of the World III...

[Frank Johnson]

Markus those units are for the AI controled natives, who need all the help they can get when it comes to fighting. Its designed to make colonization difficult untill after gunpowder.

[Zylka]

...and if this game is able to continue, when will we? I'm up for tonight, since close to nothing was accomplished last night.

[Frank Johnson]

The following compromise will be made. Ozzy will be credited a tech (republic) to make up for the one he had to research to get the special unit. From now on tech pushing forward isnt considered a negative. The horseman ozzy has will go down to 2 moves, and......the WAR ends.

Hopefully everyone coems back to play.

[Prometheus]

Sigh, first off I apologize for leaving last night, but there was no way I was going to sit around while everyone argued and the game lost its fun fast.

While Frank’s solution has merit (though I don’t think Chris will agree to it, as I wouldn’t if I had lost three cities) I am proposing something else,

Restart the game,

Why not, two new players, the rest of the game will be destroyed anyway… there will be bad feelings for the rest of the game, as it is being taken personally by all players and everyone acted immaturely, I would just say start again.

I personally don’t like the special units, I think they destabilize the game and would suggest starting again with out them but I know Frank and Oz like them(then again I dislike Civ 3 so go figure why I dislike the Special Units). Not only that but(no offence Frank) but I don’t think there is any fair way to decide which ones are fair and not, how much they should cost, what abilities they should be able to have.

I think the Natives are a good Idea and I think the game was a good Idea, but I think if we were to continue now, it would just be a downward spiral.

[Chris 62]

Pro, don't feel bad about leaving, I know you just wanted to play, but I couldn't let that suck head play pass.

I don't mind either Frank's solution, or yours, both are fine.

Special units seems a bad idea from a play balence standpoint.
Despite what Ozzy thinks, my little ship's +1 movement (but ZERO attack factor, one positive, one negative, you following Mr three enhancements? ) wasn't much of a help, as compared to the big exploration of the Zulus and the over the top arab unit.

Restart seems a good, fair, compromise, plus that way I wouldn't have that stupid native tech i couldn't use, the anti-techs wouldn't be needed either, and we could add in real units for EVERYBODY, so no one nation can go on a kill spree just because that's how they get their jollies, with a super unit.

Also, if we want this to be a diplo game, you must have a valid reason for war, not because you suddenly feel "militant", otherwise I'll just play it like a regular game and f*ck diplomancy.
That means no "Sneak attacks" without a reason, if there is a dispute, that's different, but just because you feel like it is bull.

I was playing under the assumption we would talk fist, other wise I would have followed standard MP tactics and researched military and built tons of units.

I want to know what's up before hand this time, I didn't enjoy having three sessions game play ripped up by an illegal unit because one guy thought it was "fun".

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by Chris 62
Special units seems a bad idea from a play balence standpoint.
Despite what Ozzy thinks, my little ship's +1 movement (but ZERO attack factor, one positive, one negative, you following Mr three enhancements? ) wasn't much of a help, as compared to the big exploration of the Zulus and the over the top arab unit.

Restart seems a good, fair, compromise, plus that way I wouldn't have that stupid native tech i couldn't use, the anti-techs wouldn't be needed either, and we could add in real units for EVERYBODY, so no one nation can go on a kill spree just because that's how they get their jollies, with a super unit.

No, you aren't going to come in here and entirely change this game. The special units are a wonderful idea, If you weren't a whiney f_cking *****, you'd understand that. In fact if i recall you were initially pushing for a legitmately illegal unit, but it proved to be against the rules so you got something else. My unit is according the RULES THAT WE AGREED ON. IT ISN'T ILLEGAL. You are just throwing a hissy fit.

Also, if we want this to be a diplo game, you must have a valid reason for war, not because you suddenly feel "militant", otherwise I'll just play it like a regular game and f*ck diplomancy.
That means no "Sneak attacks" without a reason, if there is a dispute, that's different, but just because you feel like it is bull.

I was playing under the assumption we would talk fist, other wise I would have followed standard MP tactics and researched military and built tons of units.

I want to know what's up before hand this time, I didn't enjoy having three sessions game play ripped up by an illegal unit because one guy thought it was "fun".

You obviously don't know a damn thing about diplogames. Diplogames aren't about playing nice and never attacking someone, they are about simulating real life, and playing roles. You honestly believe there has never been a surprize attack in real life? You honestly believe there has never been a war fought over ideology? You honestly believe in real life the Muslims didn't conquer Europe with superior passion and military? You must be off your rocker if you do.

Diplogames are meant to simulate real life, be a role playing game. Of course war happens, it is stupid to think otherwise. DIPLOGAMES ARE NOT ABOUT EVERLASTING PEACE. If you want a building game then you find yourself somewhere else to play. War is a large factor in Diplogames. Hell you were the first person in the game to declare war, so what the hell are you jumping down my throat for.

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by Prometheus
While Frank’s solution has merit (though I don’t think Chris will agree to it, as I wouldn’t if I had lost three cities) I am proposing something else,

See, thats what it comes down to. Chris lost some cities (which is something that happens in war) the only reason he is making a stink is because he suffered some losses. Well so have I. This is what war is all about. He is just whining for a rule change so he can gain some advantage over me.

Restart the game,

Why not, two new players, the rest of the game will be destroyed anyway… there will be bad feelings for the rest of the game, as it is being taken personally by all players and everyone acted immaturely, I would just say start again.

I am not going to throw a month and a half down the drain and just start over. Its just not happening. Either we play on or the game is over. Everything was going great, and everyone was enjoying the game until Chris decided to manufacture some complaint against me. You knew about my unit, and you didn't say anything. Its just Chris, who apparently has no concept of this game, who is just scraping for any advantage he can get over me.

I personally don’t like the special units, I think they destabilize the game and would suggest starting again with out them but I know Frank and Oz like them(then again I dislike Civ 3 so go figure why I dislike the Special Units). Not only that but(no offence Frank) but I don’t think there is any fair way to decide which ones are fair and not, how much they should cost, what abilities they should be able to have.

I think the Natives are a good Idea and I think the game was a good Idea, but I think if we were to continue now, it would just be a downward spiral.

You liked the special units a lot before. We talked at length about this game, and how it would be revolutionary. You were plotting what cool units you could come up with to make the game interesting, this avertion to the special units only came about because Chris started making a stink.

The downward spiral is the fault of just one person, Chris. I say we eject him from the game, and continue as we were, since things were going much better before he started whining about everything. Zylka should be removed too, he has only played 2 turns or so in this game and he thinks he can take control of it and demand rule changes. Screw that.

[OzzyKP]

Game Balance & Fairness

Much of the arguments developing here are about game balance and fairness. These are concerns that just don't fully apply to a diplogame. Look at the other 'diplogames' that are going on now. Everyone is whingering (love that Aussie slang) about 'balance'. The games have had to be restarted several times.

People complain that unequal starts were unfair, people complain that alliances are unfair, people complain that tech trading is unfair, people complain that wonders are unfair, people complain that diplos are unfair, people complain that huts are unfair, people complain that building too many cities is unfair, people complain for just about every aspect of this game as being potentially unfair. What is the point of this?

How important is game balance for a friendly diplogame? Perhaps if this were a duel, or perhaps if this was competitive for points balance may play a large part, but this game is none of that. Would we honestly enjoy a game where every single controlable factor has been controlled? A game in which every single person starts in a 10x10 island that is identical to all the other islands and an equal distance away from the others? This does not sound enjoyable to me, and I would shoot myself rather than play in it.

If you will allow me to extrapilate, this mindset of an unfair world is destroying our very society. The guy next door has a newer car, well thats just unfair. The guy across the street has a prettier wife, well thats just unfair. The guy down the street enjoys life more, well thats just unfair. No. This is not unfair, it is just different, people have to live the lives they've been given, and there is nothing unfair about it.

People like this have two fundemental flaws in logic. First, when people perceive everything as unfair, they seek to try and control that unfairness. They turn to authority and rules to FORCE people to be equal and 'fair'. This is Communism folks, and I cannot allow it. Chris thinks the game is unfair, and he wants to change the rules of the game to FORCE it to be fairer to him. This is misguided and destructive.

The second large flaw is they only see unfairness in characteristics where they are lacking. If I have a bigger house, well thats understandable, but they guy who has the nicer car is unfair. To bring it back to the game, Chris, and in fact EVERYONE IN THE GAME, has MUCH MUCH MUCH nicer land than I do. I have desert, nothing but lots and lots of desert. Is this unfair? Do i complain? No. In fact in setting up this game I knew someone would have to be in the mideast, and I knew that whoever was there would put up a big stink, and whine about how unfair it was, so I took the mideast on purpose just to try and avoid people from whining about it.

Does Chris feel this is unfair that he has lush Europe and I have arid N. Africa and the Mideast? No, of course not. He thinks it is unfair that I am arrogant enough to try and improve my situation by attacking him. Since I don't honestly believe our dispute will be resolved, and I don't see this game continueing, I will explain my mindset and strategy in this game. My position is the worst in the game, I not only have terrible land, but I am right in the middle of everyone. I have no place to expand. India can easily get down to Oceania and expand, China can go to Oceania and America. Germany and Russia have already made great advances in America, the Zulu can use the S. Pole to expand to S. America and Australlia. What do I have? I have enemies on ALL SIDES.

My position in this game is entirely undefendable. I am the crossroads of the world, and unless i can ally with all my neighbors (Zulu, German, Russian, and India) then there is no way I can be secure, my land will be the battleground for the entire game. Everyone else has nice pennisulas and borders that don't need to be defended, I don't have that. I am at a huge disadvantage. So considering I have NO room to expand, considering my land is CRAP, and considering I am surrounded by ENEMIES, my only recourse to try and maintain a competitive edge in this game is to try and attack my neighbors to get some land from them. Now I am told this is unfair. Well you can take your hypocritical whining about unfairness and shove it up your ass.

[Prometheus]

Alright we go with Frank’s proposal…

Republic to Oz, Oz’s special Unit to two movement, and tech advancement is not a negative.

I will agree to that however, I think that if a unit negates a special unit of another unit is should also be counted as a attribute.

Originally posted by OzzyKP

The downward spiral is the fault of just one person, Chris. I say we eject him from the game, and continue as we were, since things were going much better before he started whining about everything. Zylka should be removed too, he has only played 2 turns or so in this game and he thinks he can take control of it and demand rule changes. Screw that.

No sorry Oz, no, there is no way; we are continuing to play with them. The game is how it is, agreed, we are playing with special units, they might not like it but we are playing with them. And likewise just because they disagreed and want to change it does not mean its happening but that does not mean we are kicking them out.

[Chris 62]

Originally posted by OzzyKP

The downward spiral is the fault of just one person, Chris.

Wrong, sh1t for brains, YOU are the single route cause of the problem, and we all agree on that.

I say we eject him from the game, and continue as we were, since things were going much better before he started whining about everything. Zylka should be removed too, he has only played 2 turns or so in this game and he thinks he can take control of it and demand rule changes. Screw that.

I say we eject Ozzy, he's a total ass-hole that wants to play by his own rules.

And before you shoot your mouth off again, you little weasal, I already talked to several game members, they agree with me.

YOU are the problem.

[OzzyKP]

I am not opposed to some kind of agreement to sort this thing out, but I am very skeptical it is possible.

Firstly, there is a great deal of bad blood. Stuff that happens in diplogames are supposed to stay in the game. As far as I can recall, all the early wars in HOTW2 were handled with chivalry. People got attacked, they attacked back, and they handled it well. With all the petty fighting this game has devolved into I'm unsure it will ever get back on track. Chris and Zylka will be plotting all game to "get me back".

Second, there are many other factors Frank's deal doesn't take into consideration. He calls for an end to the war. Well this war is something I have been counting on for a while. Not just story-wise, but strategically wise. I am doomed in this game if I cannot bump heads with my neighbors to get a little elbow room. We will all 'peacefully grow' and I will be left trapped and alone in my wretched spot of desert as everyone passes by me.

Also, if my unit is taken away and the war is called off, then I am also toast. I am at war with half the world by myself! They would just carve me up in no time. I planned this war delibrately to take into consideration my powerful unit. Despite the non-stop whining, Chris is failing to realize that I handicapped myself far more than what any of you could do. Even WITH my "totally illegal unit" I am loosing this war. My element of surprize has been erased by Chris' hissy fit last week when he quit once I attacked. Becaue of this loss I have lost my entire invading army to Chris' bribes and Prom's invasion of Turkey.

If you guys wanted to just end this war and make this a building game, I have been put behind many turns because I had focused on building up my military and I am way behind in tech. I had intended to catch up in tech by taking stuff from my enemies. If this is denied to me then I'm sunk even more.

You don't realize how your new rules will affect me in this game. Its as if India has decided not to compete too much in Asia, and instead would focus on colonizing Australia. They work for many turns building up a good amount of ships and lots of settlers. The ships reach Australia, he unloads 7 settlers, and then is told that the others in the game decided colonizing Australlia is now against the rules for some reason. India would be totally screwed!

My strategy is being taken away from me by a midgame rule change, I am getting screwed by people who are rewriting the rules to their advantage and I think it stinks.

[Zylka]

Ok. I propose that we let ozzy keep his unit if the rest of us get three enhancement units as well. Especially since we had to push our specials back to certain techs (ie feudalism for me). Fair?

(Still laughing my ass off that he wanted alpine as well)

Zylka

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by Zylka
Ok. I propose that we let ozzy keep his unit if the rest of us get three enhancement units as well. Especially since we had to push our specials back to certain techs (ie feudalism for me). Fair?

(Still laughing my ass off that he wanted alpine as well)

Not that is seems I am ever going to get a fair hearing, I want to explain the history of this unit because people are just making things up to make me look like the cheater they imagine me to be.

My initial design for the unit was 6/0/2 with Alpine. I thought it might be possible at first, since according to Frank a 2 move unit with Alpine counts as 2 positives. So I had 2 negatives, the loss of defense and pushing back its inception. Frank was about to sign off on this, but then I figured 2 negatives and 3 positives was the right ratio, but still in excess of the rules. I decided it was against the rules and we thought up a new design. FRANK SUGGESTED I switch it to a 3 move unit and get rid of the alpine, that was legal, since it was just like what the Russians had. So then it became a 6/1/3 unit, 2 positives and 1 negative.

And you are all further making up stuff about my unit, some people have said it has 3 positives? Or 4 positives? What on earth? Are you trying to blame me for the pikeman thing?
First of all neither Frank and I even realized that would be a factor until after the unit was introduced, and secondly had I tweaked the crusader to be 1 move, would you accuse me of getting a positive for getting around the pikeman? This was an unintended byproduct.

Does Frank and Kuja's explorer unit count as multiple positives too in your eyes? It is a warrior with alpine ability. Lets count them up: Well its the same unit as an explorer, but with an attack, so thats 1 positive. Plus it is only 10 sheilds rather than 30 so thats another 2 positives. And it was able to be built four techs earlier than the explorer, so that is another 4 positives. So all in all Frank and Kuja cheated more than anyone, their "illegal unit" counted for 7 positives!!!

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by Zylka
Ok. I propose that we let ozzy keep his unit if the rest of us get three enhancement units as well. Especially since we had to push our specials back to certain techs (ie feudalism for me). Fair?

(Still laughing my ass off that he wanted alpine as well)

Zylka

While I didn't initially think of the pikeman thing as a positive, yea, of course you guys can have units equal to mine. I had long assumed everyone would take advantage of the rules as they were laid out, which is why I did. Ask Frank, every few days I ask him what kind of bad-ass units everyone is coming up with to match mine. I keep expecting some great units like my Janassaries, but you guys never pick any.

Prom has a very good Crusader DX unit which is incredibly powerful against walled cities. Frank made up a good defensive unit for the Indians. And Chris never really seemed to care about the game or the rules, so he never really designed a unit of his own, he just whines about the units of others. Maybe if he actually gave a damn about this game my unit wouldn't have been such of a surprize for him.

Zylka's plan is entirely acceptable to me. Bring on your 3 move units.

[Frank Johnson]

heh. Well tell me if you figure anything out.

Personally, deity has pulled me into the thursday night game, and I drove that civ into the basement, so I know no one else will want it. I'll play that one instead unless for some reason I find everyone on this thread happy about something later.