Column by Lazarus and the Gimp

[Robert]

MarkG: do you get personal attacks for these delays?

Depends on what you mean with a personal attack,
if it's: "You ****** ***** didn't update your ****** site and now it's ****** delayed again you ******" then I have to say: "No, I don't get personal attacks"

If you mean "CS, when will you do this and that like you promised 2 months ago?" then the answer will be "Yes"

My usual answer is "I'm sorry, right now I am too busy, currently I'm busy with that, after that this is coming, and than I first have to finish that, but than I'll work on your thing. I'm sorry for the delay"

There are 3 key-words for dealing with these kind complains:
- respect (the complainer)
- answer (the complainer)
- explain (your situation to the complainer)

besides that put some "I'm sorry" somewhere in your answer as well"

"Respecting" is important, because most people are only concerned about their own situation. By showing respect you show that you recognize their problem and you confirm it's a valid problem.

"Answering" is important because without an answer you can't show your respect and the complainer will feel like his problem isn't recognized.

"Explaining" is important because the complainer must understand that his problem is not the only problem around, and you aren't "not fullfilling his wish" because you want to pester him, but because you have other things to do.

The "I'm sorry" part is important because it's just a key-word in receiving respect from the complainer. And this word will oftenly (if used the right way) mellow down the complainer.

Of course there will be complainers who'll never recognize your problems, and there are comlainers who'll never show respect.
Even in those cases keep on respecting them, not because of them. Trash them and their pathatic wishes, but if only for the sake to show everybody that you're not the jerk. And the others will side with you.

Sometimes showing respect to others can have only the goal to be respected yourself. That's a valid reason to respect someone else. If we all start to do good things with evil meanings, the world will be a better place as well

Markos: if he was just posting the article he would not have used the numbering of the Column

Those situations are tricky,
There are 3 important things:
- be sure you stay in charge
- be sure the person who violates the rules respects it that you are in charge and he respects your decisions.
- a good decision is only good if everyone confirms it's a good decision.

To achive that: go with the violator as far as possible, but take the lead (ie. YOU decide this column has this number) make very clear that the next user who numbers his column will have his column to be removed, say clearly you make an exception for only this time because the violator was not aware.

People will see the violator as an ignorant person who did a stupid thing, but was not punished for his fault because of the mercy of the leader.
The leader shows good leadership by taking decisions, nobody is against the decision.

Markos: if his intentions were innocent he would not have responded to a simple request(i edited the thread title myself cause it he couldnt do it as the 5 min limit had passed. as you might have noticed i left the editing of his post to him) with insults and sarcasm

If you require something from someone, but you don't give something in return, people get frustrated.
You require Laz to do something, but you didn't give him anything in return. You could've returned respect, recognizion, explanation first, and ask him to perform after that.

Markos: please show my arrogance, when the first phrase of my first post is this thread is the acceptance of our error in the delay of the Column.

this is what you said:

Markos: you have every right to post your article since we havent posted it yet.

but you have no right to act as the publisher of the Column without our permission. and please edit the title of your post accordingly.

While everybody who replied praised the creator of this column for his work, all you did was telling him he did something wrong. That hurts. People long to be praised by their leader more than be praised by anyone else!

If everybody would've said the column sucked, but you said it was great, his day would have been made.
For that reason it's good that Ming said what he said. He complimented Laz with his promotion.

By saying what you said you give the idea that you don't care about Laz, but only care about your own column system. Eventhough you're right, nobody thinks you're right. It's very easy to make everybody think you're right! Why don't you do that?

The more respect you earn in earlier actions, the more support you will get by making later mistakes.

----------

Oh, last but not least, if you are busy, and you say that a lot of times, people will not believe you if you act only if someone violates the rules. People are frustrated if you do have time to ban them, delete their posts, correct them, but you hardly answer pm's / e-mails.

People will think "Why does he never reply to my PM, but does he act in a minute (not true, but it feels like that) if I violate the rules......?"

The best thing to do if you are busy is replying to every email / pm IMMEDIATELY! If you do it that way, it won't take much time. If you let it grow, it suddenly takes an hour to reply everybody.

And if you wait even longer, you will suddenly have 100 emails waiting and 200 pm's, and then it's too late..... you will never be able to answer them anymore.

If you answer: Be clear, don't do the usual Markos cryptical answering! I know, you want people to discover your truth yourself. But be aware that people never will do that!

If you are clear, you earn time because you don't have to pm 10 times back and forth to give more cryptical clues.

A clear answer to laz 2 months ago saying: "I'm sorry, currently I'm mega busy and the column is low priority right now. But I promise that within a few months things will be right on track again, and your column is the 3rd to be published! Please have patience with us, and thanks for submitting such a great column! I read it, and it's wonderfull"

20 seconds of typing, would have saved you 1 hour of debating!

greetings and good luck,

CyberShy

[Robert]

notice: if you're going to say "I agree" you will FEEL like a loser, but most people will see you as a reasonable rational hero!

if you're going to say "I disagree"- with all kinds of 'arguments' you will feel like "Now they'll see that I'm right" but people will will see you as someone who keeps on defending a lost argument.

No matter if you're right or wrong.

If you think that's silly, keep in mind any argument you had with someone else, and how you would feel about the other if he agreed / disagreed!

thought I should share that as well

[Robert]

I suddenly realised that I should have spread such a big post with so many arguments over about 10 replies, to earn more +

oh well, so be it

[MarkG]

NOTICE: since people are BS-lovers who are not going to really read my arguments just read the text below. people interested in arguments can pm me and i'll send them the real answer to cybershy's post

I AGREE CYBERSHY, YOU ARE RIGHT. I WILL GO DO MY MORNING WHIPING EXCERCISES NOW

[Robert]

Send me the real answer!
I'll have to PM that to you I guess.

PS. it's neither cybershy nor CYBERSHY, but CyberShy

I'm going to PM you now.

Ps. Thought I had to update my sig as well

[spartak]

Don't hold your breath for a reply.

[Robert]

Don't hold your breath for a reply.

If you wouldn't have said that, I wouldn't have hold my breath, but now you have motivated him

[Robert]

Pherhaps I should aim some bullets at the other party in the conflict as well:

- If you disagree with someone, never ever use personal attacks!
- If you disagree and you want to make yourself clear start to concider the arguments of the other.
- If you do not read the arguments of the other, cease to debate, but never keep on posting your position without reading / listening to the other person.

- My 2nd last message might have been understood as "Whatever Markos says, he's either wrong or a loser"
Don't read it that way, it's intended to be: "If you are wrong, don't keep up the argumentation, but say so. In that case people will respect you very much for that!"

Of course it should read as well "If you are right, or as long as you are sure you are right and you have valid arguments, keep on argumentating"

I will be clear on the fact that I said all of the above to Markos because I expect him to be a reasonable man, since he's the owner of this site.

I think that I can't expect the users of the site all to be reasonable. Pherhaps that's the key of my message to Markos, "Don't expect your users to be reasonable, they oftenly are not, but be sure you are reasonable because you have responsibilities"

And yes, I posted this message after Markos made clear to me that I left no room open for him to post valid argumentations. And yes, he is right on that.

And yes, Markos pm-ed me, and no, we will never know if that was because Taz motivated him or if he would've done it any way

[Robert]

And for those who hate it to read long messages:

- Don't personal insult people,
- read the others argumentations before replying, or shut up.
- Valid argumentations are ok to be posted! If yours aren't, admit it and you will be respected

[spartak]

Actually, the more I think about it, the harder I thinkwe are being on Markos.

Don't forget that this is a private site and that if we don't like the way markos/dan run it, we can just piss off. That's official and it doesn't matter how much of a contribution posters like Laz make, we must always remember that in the court of 'Poly opinion all counts for nothing against the mearest whim of Markos/Dan. Even Ming is but a supplicant on the steps of their throne. Therefore we have no right to complain because Markos is humourless and rude and never responds to his messages because after all its his site and we can just piss off if we don't like it.

Therefore Cyber, I'm afraid its time to pack your bags.

























- Did I really write thatpile of Kak?

[MarkG]

cyberSHY

lots of good generic advice, but when it comes down to this specific case....

To achive that: go with the violator as far as possible, but take the lead (ie. YOU decide this column has this number) make very clear that the next user who numbers his column will have his column to be removed, say clearly you make an exception for only this time because the violator was not aware.

this sounds like you're saying: dont punish so that you look good. dont be frank about your feelings but throw BS to the BS

you mentioned respect a lot, but it's difficult to show respect when you're not respected(and despite that, i did show respect to laz as i didnt edit his post but asked him to. and this has yet to be recognized in this thread). he mentioned that he is ready to put up with more than the "bad" attitude he got from me, from editors cause he's geting payed. well, guess what, just like he says he wont put up with much when he is not payed, the same goes for me!

the point is that lots of people have contributed to this site tons of stuff but have yet to do anything negative to complain about a delay or an error. i dont think they are superheroes or anything like that, just plain, civil people....

It's very easy to make everybody think you're right!

it's better to make everybody know you're right

People are frustrated if you do have time to ban them, delete their posts, correct them, but you hardly answer pm's / e-mails.

keeping the forums in good state is a first priority. when the forums are a mess, fun is ruined for thousands of people. when a mail or a post is not answered immediately the problem is towards only one person(a person which also gains and is shown respect from our daily work)


btw, a piece of truth: except from the initial submission and the response of acceptance by Dan(it's one of the things he handles) there is NO further email or pm from Laz about his article, except from the public(and that has it's importance) thread about it

btw(2), my role in this community is not of the leader but of the servant. leaders(or rather polticians as you described them in your advice) try to convince people they will do things for them in order to get power. i already have the power to do whatever i like on this site leaders also try to guide people. i dont do that. you dont see us telling people what to think. leaders also end up rich usually. i still have a real job servants on the other hand are either asked to do stuff or think something that they think it's usefull and suggest to do it(or do it without suggesting it and then face the reality of having done something that isnt used). servants(or to make it sound better, people who provide a service) who work for free retain the ethical right to do whatever they like with their product. beyond that, i'll let you characterize those who do not show respect to the people that serve them for free...

btw(3), taz, i like to think i have a good sense of humour when the intention is just a laugh. but when the intention is different it's kind of difficult to pretend eitherwise....

[Robert]

this sounds like you're saying: dont punish so that you look good. dont be frank about your feelings but throw BS to the BS

It's morely: "if something goes into the wrong direction, try to lead it into the right direction"

Besides that I always defend the "Don't punish people hard for litle violations" (ie. flag-field editing )

I assume most of the punishment has a goal which is preventing people from acting like an @sshole on the forums. I think you can achive that by being tolerant now and then as well.

(this is not a claim that you are never intolerant, but morely a claim that you could've been more tolerant in this case, by making that column number official as an official exception to the rule. It's not something you *SHOULD* have done, but it would've prevented much of the current argument.)

That leads us back to the official reason of punishment,
if it's to keep the forum running ok without BS argumentations and uprising, than you could've achived it IMHO better in that way.

you mentioned respect a lot, but it's difficult to show respect when you're not respected

Showing respect is something different than having respect.

i did show respect to laz as i didnt edit his post but asked him to. and this has yet to be recognized in this thread).

I think only a few people will recognize that as being respectfull. But I accept that if you claim that you did that just to show respect.

well, guess what, just like he says he wont put up with much when he is not payed, the same goes for me!

I'm getting paid for writing this!
But that's morely because I'm doing it during worktime

Anyway, I think all of us do all we do for nothing, and for that reason this argument is flawed.
And I think it pays of, but not with money.

the point is that lots of people have contributed to this site tons of stuff but have yet to do anything negative to complain about a delay or an error. i dont think they are superheroes or anything like that, just plain, civil people....

That's true.
I think it must be possible to ask for the reason of a delay in a polite manner.

Compare:
"Why did you ****** still not include my smiley code"
with
"Sorry to botter you, but can you give a tentative date you will include my smiley code in the forums please?"

To the first I should answer "I'm sorry, we will not include it" and to the 2nd I would say "I don't know it yet, but it'll surely be included"

That way you can:
1. earn respect from other users
2. punish the bastard

it's better to make everybody know you're right

Keep on dreaming

keeping the forums in good state is a first priority. when the forums are a mess, fun is ruined for thousands of people. when a mail or a post is not answered immediately the problem is towards only one person(a person which also gains and is shown respect from our daily work)

Don't look at it on an individual base, but take a look at all the pm's you get. If you answer them all soon, you will have more satisfied users, who are more willing to follow the rules. That's good for keeping the forums in a good state.

And about the respect you give by your site,
I think only people who run sites themselves undestand that. Other people take it for normal that you do that.

They don't know how much work it is to create it, and how much more work it is to keep it running.

btw, a piece of truth: except from the initial submission and the response of acceptance by Dan(it's one of the things he handles) there is NO further email or pm from Laz about his article, except from the public(and that has it's importance) thread about it

Is that this thread?
Or is that another thread, in that case, did you answer to it?

If it's this thread I think you are right.

btw(2), my role in this community is not of the leader but of the servant.

the word doesn't matter, you're the boss.
You take the decisions.

cyberSHY

As if "MarkG" makes sence

Bottommark: keep in mind that Laz is very proud on the work he did. He produced something, and putted time in it. Not as much as you did, but he still is proud on it. Since something he's that proud on was not published he got annoyed with it, which has driven him into what he did. I think he didn't got the intention to pester you or whatever, it's just that he longs for applause for his column. Keep that in mind when dealing with things like this.

[Rasbelin]

I would say it's his "Ron Jeremy" attitude (Laz = "Ron Jeremy") that caused the outburst, or is he just out for brownies as he claimed that I am?

[MarkG]

but morely a claim that you could've been more tolerant in this case, by making that column number official as an official exception to the rule.

first of all, correcting a thread title and asking for a post to be edited is NOT a punishment. therefore there has been NO punishment for Laz(i'm repititive, but this discussion has been going in a way that could go if he was banned...)

Anyway, I think all of us do all we do for nothing, and for that reason this argument is flawed.
And I think it pays of, but not with money.

sure, but when someone claims to have a low level of what attitude he accepts he should expect the same for others

Compare:
"Why did you ****** still not include my smiley code"
with
"Sorry to botter you, but can you give a tentative date you will include my smiley code in the forums please?"

To the first I should answer "I'm sorry, we will not include it" and to the 2nd I would say "I don't know it yet, but it'll surely be included"

That way you can:
1. earn respect from other users
2. punish the bastard

Wrong!! a decision towards a request should NOT be determined by the tone of the request. this is admin rule #1. "i wont do it cause the person who asked for it is an idiot" is not a good argument to give to other people when asked about it

Don't look at it on an individual base, but take a look at all the pm's you get. If you answer them all soon, you will have more satisfied users, who are more willing to follow the rules.

less than 0.1% of our daily visitors mail us about something(that's still a lot of mail though ). doing something that affects 100% of the visitors takes higher priority

And about the respect you give by your site,
I think only people who run sites themselves undestand that. Other people take it for normal that you do that.

dont think so. the grand majority of mails start with great words about our site and service

Is that this thread?

it's this thread

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?threadid=62781

where Laz got a quick reply(in 4.5 hours) by me(after some info from Rasbelin) and a second reply by Dan.

Laz bumped it once without geting a reply(there was nothing to reply except that there was nothing to reply )
if that's enough justification for what he did....

the word doesn't matter, you're the boss.
You take the decisions.

and people come here or go away. it's not like you have to leave the country if you dont like your leader

keep in mind that Laz is very proud on the work he did. He produced something, and putted time in it.

if he is proud of his article, how "much more" proud should i be for apolyton?

[Robert]

first of all, correcting a thread title and asking for a post to be edited is NOT a punishment.

did I say 'punishment'?
I say be tolerant by just leaving it the way it is, put the rest of my argument next to it.

sure, but when someone claims to have a low level of what attitude he accepts he should expect the same for others

That's true, but you can always decide to give him more.

On the other side, give to others what you want to be given.

Wrong!! a decision towards a request should NOT be determined by the tone of the request. this is admin rule #1.

a very respectable attitude!

less than 0.1% of our daily visitors mail us about something(that's still a lot of mail though ). doing something that affects 100% of the visitors takes higher priority

If 5% of these visitors who didn't got a reply to your mail start to fool around on the forums, it affects 100% of your visitors

dont think so. the grand majority of mails start with great words about our site and service

Of course much of the people are still very happy!
Anyway, the main message of me was that there will always be people who will not understand.

Laz bumped it once without geting a reply(there was nothing to reply except that there was nothing to reply )
if that's enough justification for what he did....

That makes Lazarus a very lazy person.

and people come here or go away. it's not like you have to leave the country if you dont like your leader

some of us can't leave that easily!
You know we love apolyton!

if he is proud of his article, how "much more" proud should i be for apolyton?

1000 times as proud. Almost as proud as I can be for my cool forum