Apolyton Hall of Fame: August 2002

[Apocalypse]

Originally posted by jsorense
Apocalypse is right. MikeH was with BAC when it was consumed by Apolyton. He was the Science Editor iirc.

Of course I'm right.

[DarkCloud]

Make that at least 12 out of 37. I've been here since the beginning and most of my posts have been in the on-topic sections. I still play MP games twice a week.

Sorry rah, It was just a quick listing of those I rememberd off the top of my head ops:

I also see Adam Smith and AH who are also well known in the MP community and have been here since the beginning and have contributed to the community.

They are MPers? That's new to me. Thanks for the inforamtion (I'm sort of 'out of' the MP communities

If someone feels that on-topic people aren't represented they're wrong. In some of the past voting, people have posted links to the thread in on-topic areas and others added their own editorial comments. As in any election/popularity contest, a little campaigning is never a bad idea.

I never knew about that?

Thus, the Hall of Fame mostly represents the retired gamer community - fine as it is, I belive on-topic sections, like CtP, need more representation.

Just like the Baseball Hall of fame represents the Retired Baseball players and The Rock and Roll hall of fame... and the Scientists hall of fame... etc... it makes sense You have to be around for a LONG time to be noticed and merit entrance

I think that most posters need to have spent at least around a year at apolyton to warrant entry.
This shows that they have 'staying power' and have consistently contribuited (maybe not largely with scenarios the ENTIRE time) but contribuited with posts, help, etc. throught their stay.
100% of the hall exhibit these charactaristics for sure;
even the major OTer, Chegitz. Can anyone here from the OT imagine the OT without chegitz?

I defend all the members. They all deserve to be in! I know them all (with the exception of 1 or 2) and from what I hear (from Chris62 on the subject of paitkis), the ones I don't know are VERY worthy!

They just may not post in the ontopic anymore!

But they've been around and they have STAYED around!


The newbies may deserve to be in... But you can't base all entrance requirements on a few contributions made in 1 or 2 months. (Although If I believe correctly, Theseus, Catt, et al have been around at least from Sept 01-Nov 01, in which case they are nearly done building up their legacies. If they keep up, they should find no problem being elected.

I'll post a Veteran's Committe thread for all interested in the OT, but I think I'll ask here.

Anyone interested in the vet's committee (registered b.2-15-99) please send me a PM.
I think I'll have a committee of 5 members who each have an equal vote.
Also, we will have a proposition thread, where people nominate Veterans; (Posters who have posted less than 1 post a month within the past 6 months or so. AND registered in 1999 or earlier)
Then, the 10 most popular names, will enter voting by the Veterans Committee (Voting will either be a: closed (PM's which reduces the problem of people spamming a thread) or b: open (which allows all to see the votes)
The vets will be encouraged to post reasons for their votes.
Each vet will have 3 votes to distribute.
Any member receiving 4 votes will be inducted.
Unless no member receives 4 votes in which case a maximum of 3 members with 3 votes will be inducted.
If there are more than 3 members with 3 votes, then there will be a runoff and the top 3 will be inducted.


-DO NOT READ THIS SECTION UNLESS YOU WISH TO BE CONFUSED; SKIP THIS TABLE (UNLESS YOU WANT TO READ DARKCLOUD LOGIC)
Thus, the probability of any of the 10 members entering the hall is as follows:

---5 Committee Members- 3 Votes apiece.
---10 Possible Electees

(5)*(3)=15 votes possible to be distribuited.

15 distribuited over 10.
Each member has a possibilty of a minimum of 1.5 votes
However, each CM (Committee Member can only vote for 3 DIFFERENT People; thus narrowing the probability)

Example
5/10ths probability for any one CM to vote for a person

TO GET
4 votes--> 4/5 have to vote for you; each having a 1/3 chance Times the fact that you are one of 10 people= 37/30= 1.233% chance MIN ESTIMATE
4 votes--> 5/5 * 1/3 * 1/10= 1.433% chance MAX ESTIMATE

That is the estimate that ANY ONE JUDGE might vote for ANY ONE Person.

-
Final note- 1.433% COULD equal a 143% chance instead of a 1.43%, as could an 1.23% chance

THUS, it is almost CERTAIN that 1 or perhaps 2 people will be inducted with 4 votes apiece

Please excuse my probably incorrect probability. I am a bit sketchy on probability problems and need to relearn them

-END TABLE; END LOGICFUNCTION DARKCLOUD


Votes will be held twice a year. Once in Oct/Nov/December. Once in May/Jun/July/Aug or something of the sort (every 6 months)

How does that sound?

[Jay Bee]

I wanna be in the Vet committee

[DarkCloud]

Okay Jay Bee. Thanks for the application!

-Final note: add Chris62 to my list of PRIMARILY On-Topic civ posters.

That makes 15 at the least!!!!

-
Now we have 2 members only 3 slots still open!

[Panag]

Originally posted by DarkCloud
Okay Jay Bee. Thanks for the application!

-Final note: add Chris62 to my list of PRIMARILY On-Topic civ posters.

That makes 15 at the least!!!!

-
Now we have 2 members only 3 slots still open!

hi ,

only 2 slots open , ....

have a nice day

[Solver]

DarkCloud: I disagree on calling people newbies. Someone registered for two moths who did much to the site, by good posts, is not a newbie. Next, I'm not only registered for a year, I'm registered for almost two .

Shame I'm not a veteran, though .

[Rasbelin]

I agree with Solver, and I want to remind that I'm still protesting against DarkCloud's politburo, Hall of Shame. I just don't get it why it's so important for him to rank Apolytoners as there's already a title ladder and you also know when a member has registered (unless you're one of the oldies that have been here already since 1970 ) and most "popular" Apolytoners are still respected without any HoS elections. IMHO, DarkCloud,...

Down with this segregation! I want a class free Poly community!

[Solver]

Nah the title system is not supposed to rank people! Actually it's wrong... while with a few people their title just gives you an idea they're staff or Yin26, it just merely reflects the posting level...

[DarkCloud]

DarkCloud: I disagree on calling people newbies. Someone registered for two moths who did much to the site, by good posts, is not a newbie.

They are newbies. They don't know their way around the site. Very few people can know their way around the site within less than 5 months, and then they have to have posted just about everywhere.

IF someone is to become known, they have to be here about 5-10 months, otherwise, the community will forget them when they leave because they did not do things sustained enough (example: anyone remember OmniGod?)

It's a year for the regular HoF, for the vet's comittee, they have to have been regulars from 1999 and haven't posted in a long time.-
-

Message to panag- sorry, I don't understand you ?

[Tuberski]

Funny thing is DarkCloud isn't eligible for the Veteran's committee.

[St Leo]

BTW, are "Deity Clubs" and "Emperor Clubs" still against the rules? Why is the Hall of Fame allowed then?

[DarkCloud]

Originally posted by Tuberski
Funny thing is DarkCloud isn't eligible for the Veteran's committee.

Well, I'm not a veteran, am I?

No one, not even Provost would consider me one, and he registered in Feb 2000!

St Leo, it isn't a club, it's an acievement, it's not as if the hall of fame people act as if they are better than anyone. Think of it as 'extra' recognition!

Care to sign up for the committee?

[Solver]

DarkCloud - I do remember OmniGod . And I dislike what people have to do to get "known"... for them to be famous, good posting aren't enough. In fact, you only get known either by walking on the line of rules, posting a lot in the OTF (d'oh) or being a staff member. Excellent posts in one section won't help. Like, how many here know Dale?

[Locutus]

It's the APOLYTON civ site. Not just the Civ-cliqueish site.

Yes, it's the Apolyton CIV site, the focus of this site is very strongly on Civ, not on OT. Yes, OT is a part of this site and a HoF without OTers would be just as bad as a HoF without CtPers or SMACers (note BTW that there are at present exactly 0 CtPers (CtP1 or 2) in the HoF) but, as you said yourself, at present about 60-70% of the HoF members are first and foremost OTers, which is in sharp contrast with the reality on Apolyton.

Anyways, what's more important on the site, the WHOLE site, or just the civ section?

What's more important, the WHOLE site, or just the OT section? At present, OT, which represents at most 10% of Apolyton's coverage (next to Civ1/2/3, SMAC,CtP1/2, FreeCiv, Col, Alt Civ, MoO, RoN, Dinos, etc - with the focus being on all but OT), delivers well over 50% of the HoF members. And again: the focus of this site is on Civ; doesn't mean OT should be completely overlooked, but it should not dominate either.

The OT is a vibrant part of this site. During Civ II's aging and death, the OT kept the site alive.

I would say that SMAC, Alt. Civ, CtP1 and CtP2, as well as other elements (including Civ2 itself, unless I missed the funeral and the obituary it's still alive and well) were at least as important as the OT was in keeping this site alive in the first 3.5 years of it's existance, when we were awaiting Civ3. I know many OTers feel that the OT is underappreciated (a feeling which IMHO indeed contains a core of truth), but they themselves in turn underappreciate the importance of the rest of the site (just because you don't like CtP, doesn't mean it isn't an important part of Apolyton). Civilization, as well as Apolyton, is far more than just Civ2 and Civ3 (and OT)...

EVC- apolyton micronationalism, apolyton OT, apolyton daffy duck, old contributions, I think I saw one or 2 on the list IIRC.

So EvC was an important OTer. That's very nice, and I don't have strong objections to having him (or paiktis or MikeH or anyone else I mentioned) in an Apolyton HoF, but how do these accomplishments compare to those of someone like Harlan? I mean, of those of us who have been around here long enough, how many have NOT played one or more of Harlan's scenarios, downloaded any of his maps or used any of his modmaking resources? Who has NEVER visited the Scenario League website/forum? Participated in any of the MP tournaments/ladders? With all due respect, but do you really think that EvC's micronation activities or Daffy Duck title is of the same level as Wes's 3 revolutionary MedMods, Harlan's brilliant Mongols, Viking Age or WWII Scenarios or Stefan Härtel's immersive Ancient Scenarios? Or for that matter Tau Ceti's excellent MP work or the 7 innovative Clash demos that Mark_Everson brought us or an outstanding game called FreeCiv? I mean, EvC's flaming, trolling and spamming in the OT was quite amusing (at times I enjoyed it myself as well) and micronations kept some of us off the street for a while, but I fail to see how those things are more noteworthy and more worth of commemorating than the great feats (scenarios, modpacks, strategies, help guides, lists, tournaments, ladders, games, etc) of all the people I've mentioned before, especially when we're talking about the HoF of a Civilization site.

Same with paiktis (I most certainly *did* do research on him for the period before I knew him): sure, he was around on the Civ2 forums, but he wasn't exactly a long-time vet from the first days - and can anyone mention anything he actually accomplished there? Did he invent any radical new ways of playing, ala Paul? Did he discover important tricks/cheats/strategies, ala Xin-Yu? Did he write any strategy guides, ala Vel? How about scenarios, MP accomplishments, anything? I did a thorough check on his profile but couldn't find anything significant. Yes, he posted on the Civ2 forums for a while and was a valuable member, just as on the Civ3 forums, but he never seemed like anything more than a regular poster to me. And regular is good, regulars deserve credit (maybe more than they currently get), but this site has hundreds of regulars - the HoF is for people who did more than just being around! As I said before, I like paiktis - I regard him an old buddy from my Civ3 days (we're still supposed to set up that detective agency (inside joke)) - so I would very much like for him to get the honor and credit he deserves, but you are giving him (and others) far more than he deserves by claiming that his merits outweigh those of many others (who's names I've mentioned more than once).

Note once again that paiktis and EvC and others are just examples: I'm trying to describe a tendency here rather than to pick on individuals.

Don't get me wrong, I don't mind having any of the people currently in the HoF being there - did I at any point suggest you should remove anyone? - but I do think there is a large number of people missing from it. That's why I suggested the on topic-only version in the first place. If people like paiktis and EVC are in, you should make enough room for people like WesW and Tau Ceti and others as well - worrying about the HoF becoming too large should be the last of your worries as long as they are not!

As it is, the HoF is merely a popularity contest, but a HoF should be a much more than that! In a popularity contest, I would vote on my buddies, on people like Immortal Wombat, Solver, Grampos, Peter Triggs (to name a few). If I were to vote on people who were important for Apolyton (which AFAIK is pretty much the definition of a HoF - see Football/Baseball/etc HoFs), I would vote for Harlan, Stefan Härtel, Mark_Everson, Celestial_Dawn, WesW, etc (these people did a little bit more than 'just trow together a simple scenario'). There's a subtle difference between 'people I like' and 'people who deserve to be respected and commended for their achievements'.

Those parts are dead except for MPers

(1) Since when does MP not count? (2) you obviously don't visit any of those section very often. CtP2: the most actively (fan-)developed game in the Civ series, new files and revolutionary new ideas being introduced every week; Alt Civ: IIRC something like 6-10 betas/demos/etc were released in the last 9 months; Civ2: does MP ring a bell? or maybe the multiple Democracy games? Checked out the Scenario League forum/website latetely? 3 new forums were added in the last few months; CtP1: it's MP forum during peak hours probably has more activity than OT(!), currently running a World Cup Tournament and 2 ladders; SMAC: Democracy game, MP, FreeAC, Fiction - all alive and kicking. The fact that they have less forum activity than OT doesn't mean they are dead. The are quieter because, for one thing, people behave less spammy there and for another because playing/modding/writing about games takes a lot of time and thus forces you to spend less time on the forums.

30 regulars is not enough to warrant a poll? How many is? 100? 200? How do you define a 'regular'? How do you know who the regulars are? (One would have to be a regular oneself to know and a single person can only be a regular in so many forums) How do you know only 10% of the regulars would vote? (This may be the case for OT but OT and on topic are quite different - e.g. I know the CtP2 community well enough to know that if you allowed them to vote in their own forum probably have at least 70% of the regulars would vote, the same probably goes for CtP1-MP) Since when can non-regulars not vote? (For example, Peter Triggs is probably one of the 'oldest' and best informed CtPers around, but until recently he was still a Chieftain and by no means a regular, and only the true vets knew and appreciated his unsurpassed wisdom on modding the AI - he's quite knowledgeable on CtP's/Apolyton's history as well) Don't take this the wrong way but who are you (or any other individual aside from Markos & Dan) to determine all this? Posting the same thread in several extra forums takes about 2 minutes and helps a LOT towards giving the HoF more (highly-needed!) credibility. If the HoF is to represent Apolyton, it should represent all of Apolyton!

Those people are too old.

So newbies can't be in, vets can't be in - why bother to have a HoF at all! Ain't the whole idea of a HoF to commemorate the achievements of those who did great things in the past? How can you be too old for that?! I can assure you that there are plenty of CtPers who remember CD, TP, Harlan, WesW, Paul, OmniGod (yes, OmniGod ) and others from CtP history who deserve credit - their work is still in use today! And anyone browsing through the Directory, Scenario Collection or Scenario League databases can see that Harlan and Stefan Härtel were important people - and still are if you still play Civ2 Scenarios! Quite frankly I think that OTers (with the exception of the real vets) have a much shorter memory span than the on topicers. Can you expect anyone to remember people who did great things 2 years ago if you're daily activities mainly consist of discussing/spamming (sorry, I mean funposting )/trolling/etc? This explains very well why only the gamers who are also active in OT only get elected, and not the ones who never leave on topic (or do FoAs or the like).
OTOH, if you still encounter the work of those ancient vets on a regular basis because you use their files or their knowledge, you will very well remember who they were. For example, Paul has not posted in the CtP2 forums in ages, yet every CtP2ers knows who he is thanks to his ModSwapper file, which *every* CtP2 user still uses today. You can bet the CtP1ers can remember dutcheese, Celestial_Dawn and WesW as well for the same reason and I doubt the other sections of Apolyton are very different. Sure, more recent people might make it in easier because they're fresher in memory but the oldies would certainly not be forgotten.

Solver, Dale posts in more than just 1 section Unfortunately it's only all the 'wrong' sections from the point of view of OTers

[DarkCloud]

Like, how many here know Dale?

I know OF him

Locutus- you do have to give the OT credit- they voted in Xin Yu and he NEVER posts there

The reason I post this in the OT is that I know for sure that the vets will get elected, since they post in the OT anyways for the most part. This allows many civesque people to be elected.

However, if I put it in say the Civ II section ,we would end up with very obscure people... much like the OT has sometimes done, but it would be more like 75% since there are less regular posters there. (IN the OT about 100 people visit in a day, in the other fora it's less)

-

(including Civ2 itself, unless I missed the funeral and the obituary it's still alive and well)

In the last year and a half, Civ II has been all but deserted except for MWHC and Succession gamers.

Ah, taht makes 16- MWHC is another on the list who is a big Civver!

Civilization, as well as Apolyton, is far more than just Civ2 and Civ3 (and OT)...

That's true. It probably is bad that CTP doesn't have a single person. The only other explation other than those you give is that it hasn't been around as long as Civ II and has yet to build up a well known community outside of yourself, WesW, Solver, and perhaps one or two others.

Many of those OTers are known outside the OT, but yes, many of them were elected from inside the community, but part of that is because the poll has always been in the OT because I was afraid of site rules (with some excusions to the community section)

Thus, in the future, I think:
CTP2, Civ III and OT will ahve the poll, if that is all right?

Alt Civ: IIRC something like 6-10 betas/demos/etc were released in the last 9 months

they may have been released but the posting was abysmal. I KNOW. I visit every 2 months or so and find maybe 3 new threads

I also have the second thread in CTP II MP So I do drop by from time to time

How do you know only 10% of the regulars would vote?

It was true in the Civ III section... actually it was more like 1% or less

Since when can non-regulars not vote?

I never said they couldn't, I just said taht it was likely they wouldn't know people who belonged in the hall since they weren't around here as much.

When I said those people are too old, I was saying that no one would vote for them because they didn't know them.

I think that's pretty obvious. If you don't know someone, yo uwon't vote for them.

Posting the same thread in several extra forums takes about 2 minutes and helps a LOT towards giving the HoF more (highly-needed!) credibility. If the HoF is to represent Apolyton, it should represent all of Apolyton!

There is also over-thread flooding. Although I seem to have cleared that with ming. IF people really want me to post it everywhere, but please realize this, every time I post the hall of fame, I get flamed by people, and I find that annoying. (I don't really care about educated complaints, such as yours and perhaps solvers, but people like Tassadar [I think it was him] who say "why are you posting this here you **** spammer!" Is very annoying.) That's another reason why I don't want to post it everywhere.

If someone truly pushes me, I might put another one in Scenario League, and perhaps The Spanish Civ II site... But then we'll probably run into the "OT syndrome" as you define it... people voting for their friends.

it's MP forum during peak hours probably has more activity than OT(!)

I can believe that- I've seen TheBirdMan's post count skyrocket

How does my proposal sound.

For sure:
CTP II
Civ III
OT

Possibly:
Apoly/Community
Scen League
Span Civ II

Because those are ACTIVE forums. (I could also say the Stories/Diplo fora, but I don't think we need to place one there )

Don't you think that the MPers will migrate to the General sections once and a while so that they will notice the threads there, or should I post one there too?
I do want as many people as possible to vote, but I also want to make it worth my time, as I have an average of 17-45 second loading time per page and this takes time to update.

The easiest solution would be for mark to make an announcement and I post the thread in only 3 sections.

What I'm trying to say is that you are going to have clique problems anywhere I place this (and until now, I have tried to circumvent these problems by placing the hall in the place with the most still-active vets; it hasn't worked perfectly, but I dread what may happen if I change its position), and I doubt that Stefan Hartel, Harlan, OmniGod, et. al. can overcome the cliques sad as it may be.

Then, there are the lost people, who may or may not deserve to be in, but were VERY important for a short time; Shadowstrike, UltraSonix, CornMaster, etc.

And I pretty much know regulars in most forums. I'm not omnipresent, but I like to think I know what's going on