Hypocrisy of this damn place.

[MikeH]

Why not just make the Random chat forum not increase your post count?

[Ming]

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by MikeH on 02-12-2001 09:44 AM</font>
Why not just make the Random chat forum not increase your post count?
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Uhhh... MikeH... we call it the Off Topic Forum here

You do raise a good point. However, it is my opinion that many people would then spam the on topic forums.
Most people stay on topic in the on topic forums... we would like to keep it that way



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Ming
CivII & Off-Topic Forum Moderator
Ming@Apolyton.net

[Winston]

Why not scrap post counts altogether and save us all a lot of trouble?

The answer is we've been through this before and there are no changes regarding post counts on the horizon.

So therefore some people will keep spamming/"fun posting", other people will keep complaining - and by combining their efforts, these two groups of people will make eachother's and Ming's life miserable.

The post counts are the root of the problem. That and young people's need to up it at all costs.

[reismark]

MikeH, they tried that once. Total anarchy was teased. If they were to implement it, this forum would die.

[Ming]

While there are many good arguments to drop post count, it seems most people like them. Every time a change is made (as Reismark points out), you would think it was the end of the world from all the comments.

The system put in place was discussed extensively, and was voted on.

With the exception of a few posters, the system works well

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Ming
CivII & Off-Topic Forum Moderator
Ming@Apolyton.net
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Ming (edited February 12, 2001).]</font>

[Winston]

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Ming on 02-12-2001 09:57 AM</font>
The system put in place was discussed extensively, and was voted on.


<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Yeah, but that wasn't the post count itself, it was the Settler-yadda-yadda-Deity system that was put to a vote.

People don't want change until the change occurs and they get a chance to compare the before and after situations. That's why visionary leaders (admins?) sometimes have to make the change before we'll really know for sure.

Alas, vision is a scarce resource these days.

[MikeH]

"The post counts are the root of the problem. That and young people's need to up it at all costs. "

I think young people are concerned with getting any at all.

"MikeH, they tried that once. Total anarchy was teased. If they were to implement it, this forum would die."

That implies that people are only posting to increase their post counts? Why do people care? Is it the titles?

"You do raise a good point. However, it is my opinion that many people would then spam the on topic forums.
Most people stay on topic in the on topic forums... we would like to keep it that way "

OK... here's a radical idea. Make new posters start of as deities and have your title gradually decrease as your post count increases.

[Ming]

Yes Winston... You are correct when you say the actual vote was on titles and not the post count system. However, the issue of post counts came up at that time and was also discussed extensively as part of the same discussion.

But to your comment about lack of vision...
I would have to disagree. MarkG and DanQ are constantly making changes to this site. You focus on one issue, but are ignoring all the other things that they do at this site. Now granted, most of the changes are focused on coverage of games... but this is a gaming site

They have shown a lot of vision in taking this site to new levels... As a gamer, I appreciate all the hard work they have put in to give me a place when I can discuss and learn more about games that I love.

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Ming
CivII & Off-Topic Forum Moderator
Ming@Apolyton.net

[Winston]

I agree wholeheartedly with your views on the overall quality of the site Ming. Why do you think I keep coming back for more each time I kick myself out?

I wasn't talking about lack of vision with regards to the site itself, just as an extension of my thoughts on the post count-or-not-issue. The admins seem a bit stubborn when it comes to keeping post counts. Not that it has actually been subject to any broad discussion like you indicate - I disagree there - but everytime it's proposed to drop the post counts, the admins' response has been a negative one.

Maybe we need a broad discussion ending in some sort of poll to see how many would prefer a post count-free environment?

I think there are more posters who'd rather see post counts go than you seem to acknowledge.

[Ming]

You may be right Winston... I don't really know.

I will admit that the Admin do seem to like post counts. I like them too... I feel that it adds to the overall sense of community. But, that is just my opinion.

Maybe a discussion on this topic would be valuable.
There have always been a few vocal people against the post count system. At least a discussion might bring in all sides of the issue.

Now granted... no matter where the discussion leads, it's still up to the owners of the site to decide what they want to do. It is their site, and I respect their right to do with it as they wish.

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Ming
CivII & Off-Topic Forum Moderator
Ming@Apolyton.net

[Winston]

Do you think I should set up a separate thread for such a discussion here in the Apolyton forum then? It couldn't hurt any, could it?

I have to leave work soon, but I might just create a thread on it from home tonight.

And yes, it seems we have no way to force Dan and Markos to do anything! Hrmph!!

I agree they do deserve respect for creating the site and for the way they choose to manage it on a daily basis. Generally speaking of course.

[Urban Ranger]

I don't see Provost as a spammer. Then maybe because he doesn't post spams in the OTF

I myself don't mind seeing the post count system go if that helps reducing spam. IIRC MtG also doesn't care about post counts.


Provost,

I did read the threads that are locked. As somebody (Ted?) pointed out, we can't tell what happened between you and Ming over ICQ. It's just your words against his.

[Ming]

While I'm at the office and don't have access to icq...

He basically complained that I closed his thread.
I said it was spam...
He said I was picking on him and that he doesn't spam.
He complained that I don't show him any respect.
I said something like I'm not going to discuss spam with people like him...
he asked... people like who...
I responded... people who spam...
(I may have then mentioned he's in the top five for complaints, but I might not have... not sure)

He was outraged... and I got snippy...
I said something like... "feel your outrage"... "so you are the victim here"... and then added some more snippy comments I can't remember...

he gave me the standard, well if you aren't going to discuss it... GOOD night... I sent some other comment that if he didn't spam, I would respect him.

That's how I remember it...

[St Jon]

I would like to know just how it is decided when SPAM is not SPAM?

The larger number of the Threads on the OTF could, if interpretted harshly, be dismissed as SPAM but most are allowed to run their course.

Surely the entire purpose of having an OTF in the first place is to give people a place to Post irrelevancies that would otherwise infect the main Forums. If it's success or failure is to be judged by those criteria it must be counted an enormous success as SPAM is conspicuous by it's absence from anywhere else. Indeed I can only recall one multi-Forum Post by AH in the recent past.

Finally, does any of it really matter that much? If kiddies want to boost their ranking by posting trivia who does it really hurt? As long as nothing posted is defammatory or inflammatory why should it be censored? Nobody forces anyone either to read or reply to any Thread on the OTF and the majority seem good natured in spirit anyway. Really, who are the wronged and who are the wrongdoers in all of this and does anyone care about it anyway?

[Ming]

Spam is in the eye of the beholder!
And that is not meant to be a wise guy response... but is simply the truth. It is up to the mods and admin to make that determination... and we do, whether people agree or not.

You ask why people can't post just anything (besides hate, porn..) and the answer is simple. It would turn into a grave yard of TOTALLY meaninless crap. As an example, when some of the smarter posters found an unused forum here (area25), they filled it with pages and pages of posts and many of them just said "spam" or something equally as smart

The OTF is meant as a place for people with a common interest to discuss issues not related to games. Some serious, some silly. It started as a way to remove the political, religious and other off topic discussions from the on topic forums. We try to keep it as just that... a place for people to discuss stuff. When spam was really a problem, it was almost impossible to find ANY kind of discussion...
So spamming isn't allowed for that reason.

And yes, many of the threads are silly, not important, and don't amount to much... yet on the other hand, people complain that we don't allow silly threads.
You can't please everybody

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Ming
CivII & Off-Topic Forum Moderator
Ming@Apolyton.net