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**Rynn:** · January 23, 2001, 20:02

K:

I disagree with #2, #6 and #7.

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re # 2:

Making all the factions equal re energy credits takes away an inbuilt game balancer for Morgan.

Giving everyone an extra tech and the Uni two removes one of the crucial early game decisions that players must make re their research

Giving everyone the same # colony pods removes the slight growth disadvantage the CC has (and the Pirates, if I play as them) and nullifies the slight growth advantage the Hive has.

But most of all, you've removed the element of choice - of planning what our early faction and society will look like, and created imbalance ab initio

IMHO hardly an auspicious opening for a ratings test game.

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re # 6:

I'll play as the Believers

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re # 7:

Very few PBEMs are played on the MoP because we all know it so intimately. The landmarks are not dropped randomly but occur in the same location each time (unless the CMN alters them).

But more importantly, it removes any sense of dicovery, of being on a new planet, of exploring.

Bluntly, I'm not interested in playing the MoP.

Rynn

[This message has been edited by Rynn: (edited January 23, 2001).]

**mark13** · January 23, 2001, 20:21

Yeah, I pretty much concur with Rynn on this one - there isn't much point in playing the Map of Planet - it just doesn't interest me any more, to put not too fine a point on it.

Regarding the starting units, I think the 'whatsits' system made the most sense. Morgan should, as usual, start with an extra 100 credits, and the Believers their inherent 10 year penalty. This would remove complication, and play the game how it was meant to be played.

BTW, it's the CMN, not the MSN

**Misotu** · January 23, 2001, 20:39

Um ... I thought we were taking the original 7 factions but in a SMAX setting?

**big_canuk** · January 23, 2001, 21:24

Keygen, call me what you like, but I think the following ideas are interesting and could be "built in", if you would like.

1. The whatsits system

2. No extra techs, which negates UoP, and possibly Gaian advantage

3. More than normal starting ecs on an additive, rather than multiplicative basis, would negate a Morgan advantage.

4. Maaap of Plaaanet is a dog (or possibly a goat)

**Misotu** · January 23, 2001, 21:33

Big_C are you suggesting removing starting techs? I'm not sure why we'd do this? In a way, perhaps it might increase the UoP advantage. They can make up a lost tech pretty fast, but for a faction like the Believers, losing a tech means nothing to trade ...

Rynn, I couldn't take the Gaians now ... not after our agreement, and getting Tau to suffer -1 industry 'n all

PS I vote for the whatsits system and against the Map of Planet. I don't think we should mess around with the factions and I still think we should take the original 7, with the Gaians in and the CyC out ...
[This message has been edited by Misotu (edited January 23, 2001).]

**big_canuk** · January 23, 2001, 22:04

Misotu:

No, I was clear as mud again. I am in favour of a "normal" tech start. Normal starting techs for all factions, plus a freebie for the UoP.

**Keygen** · January 24, 2001, 09:26

OK, first of all I must say as stated before that the rules will be determined by all of us, not me.
If arguments come up for any rule that will be proposed by a player then the majority will determine wether the rule will be applied or declined.
This game came up after Solver's desire to join his first SMAC/X PBEM game which would be rated also.
I took the initiative on starting a game.
Solver is an experienced SMAC player but newbie to SMAC PBEM although he has joined several CTP PBEM so he could be consider not new to the PBEM idea.
My first post was an introduction to start from somewhere as the emails didn't help much. Some points are my requests and some would be more questions than requests.

OK, lets see every reply in detail:

Googlie (Rynn)

Comment:

quote:

Originally posted by Rynn: on 01-23-2001 07:02 PM
re # 2:
Making all the factions equal re energy credits takes away an inbuilt game balancer for Morgan.
Giving everyone an extra tech and the Uni two removes one of the crucial early game decisions that players must make re their research
Giving everyone the same # colony pods removes the slight growth disadvantage the CC has (and the Pirates, if I play as them) and nullifies the slight growth advantage the Hive has.
But most of all, you've removed the element of choice - of planning what our early faction and society will look like, and created imbalance ab initio
IMHO hardly an auspicious opening for a ratings test game.

Answer:
I have post that each faction will preserve its own characteristics. That means that the Morganites will take 100 gold extra as usual. As far as I remember you had recommended the 200 gold as an alternative accelerated start. And most of us liked the idea.
I would recommend 100 gold each and 200 gold the Morganites.
By preserving each factions individuality I don't thing we would agitate the balance. It's really boring to wait a couple of months to grow some and make contact with another faction. That is the reason for my suggestion on an accelerated start. To constrain to minimum the boredom of a slow standard start.
And I don't thing that a couple of colony pods and some scouts would removed the element of choice.
Anyway if no accelerated start is a common will then I will accept it .

Comment:

quote:

Originally posted by Rynn: on 01-23-2001 07:02 PM
re # 6:
I'll play as the Believers

Answer:
Sure its fine by me!
You said that you wanted the Pirates if SMACX would be the one to play.

I>Comment[/i]:

quote:

Originally posted by Rynn: on 01-23-2001 07:02 PM
re # 7:
Very few PBEMs are played on the MoP because we all know it so intimately. The landmarks are not dropped randomly but occur in the same location each time (unless the CMN alters them).
But more importantly, it removes any sense of dicovery, of being on a new planet, of exploring.
Bluntly, I'm not interested in playing the MoP.
Rynn

Answer:
I must have mistaken an email of yours. I though when you had said Huge Planet that you ment Huge Map of Planet. Well I don't mind at all if it's gonna be a random one although a known map would accelerate contact. But it truly "kills" the beauty of the unknown.

Mark13

Comment:

quote:

Originally posted by mark13 on 01-23-2001 07:21 PM
Yeah, I pretty much concur with Rynn on this one - there isn't much point in playing the Map of Planet - it just doesn't interest me any more, to put not too fine a point on it.
Regarding the starting units, I think the 'whatsits' system made the most sense. Morgan should, as usual, start with an extra 100 credits, and the Believers their inherent 10 year penalty. This would remove complication, and play the game how it was meant to be played.
BTW, it's the CMN, not the MSN

Answer:
Well, no MoP then .
As I said, 100 gold extra for the Morganites.
What do you mean by "whatsits"? The defaults of the factions?
Really? Common man, I know it's CMN (Creator-Moderator-Narrator, right?) I was just talking to icq that time about the MSN messenger .

Misotu

Comment:

quote:

Originally posted by Misotu on 01-23-2001 07:39 PM
Um ... I thought we were taking the original 7 factions but in a SMAX setting?

Answer:
I don't care. What ever you like. SMACX was the desire of the majority.

Comment:

quote:

Originally posted by Misotu on 01-23-2001 08:33 PM
Big_C are you suggesting removing starting techs? I'm not sure why we'd do this? In a way, perhaps it might increase the UoP advantage. They can make up a lost tech pretty fast, but for a faction like the Believers, losing a tech means nothing to trade ...
Rynn, I couldn't take the Gaians now ... not after our agreement, and getting Tau to suffer -1 industry 'n all
PS I vote for the whatsits system and against the Map of Planet. I don't think we should mess around with the factions and I still think we should take the original 7, with the Gaians in and the CyC out ...

Answer:
Although I had started playing the game from the date it was released in Greece I haven't play many games (single or mp) so I don't consider my self experienced. I guess I don't know yet how to take advantage of all the UoP's characteristics.
I vote for an extra tech!
No MoP and if Solver don't have any problem he will accept I think the Gaians.

Big Kanuk

Comment:

quote:

Originally posted by big_canuk on 01-23-2001 08:24 PM
Keygen, call me what you like, but I think the following ideas are interesting and could be "built in", if you would like.
1. The whatsits system
2. No extra techs, which negates UoP, and possibly Gaian advantage
3. More than normal starting ecs on an additive, rather than multiplicative basis, would negate a Morgan advantage.
4. Maaap of Plaaanet is a dog (or possibly a goat)

Answer:
If no extra tech is a common will then no extra tech will be .
100 gold for each and 200 golds for Morganites wouldn't negate any advantage.
MoP is not a beloved one as I see . OK...OK...No Map of Planet.

Comment:

quote:

Originally posted by big_canuk on 01-23-2001 09:04 PM
Misotu:
No, I was clear as mud again. I am in favour of a "normal" tech start. Normal starting techs for all factions, plus a freebie for the UoP.

Answer:
If the majority wants to, yeah sure but it would give us all a faster "tech" start.

Damn! Quite a long post .
Well, expecting your answers to follow soon .

**Googlie** · January 24, 2001, 11:43

Keygen - et al:

I purposefully called the start-game purchase units "whatsits" to avoid confusion with energy credits. Call them "marks" for want of a better term.

Each player starts the game with 200 marks out of which sum s/he "purchases" their desired starting position (a mix of colony pods, scouts and formers, or rovers in Sparta's case)

Thus if I am a low-growth faction (say the CC) I might opt for 6 colony pods and a former, relying on internal building to get my scouts and formers.

If I am Sparta, I might take 1 pod, 1 former and five rovers, and go looking for others to subjugate.

If I have no problem growing (say the Believers), but want to have a good energy production after turn ten, I can choose, say, 3 colony pods and five formers, and have a solar colelctor park built (small one) by 2111.

The whole point is, this is an accelerated start technique that doesn't imbalance the play of the factions because they are choices the individual player made, recognizing the strengths and weaknesses of their faction

Somewhat arbitrary additional credits and the same number of units for each, while seemingly egalitarian, actually distorts the built in balance inherent in each faction.

I don't want to be picky, but let's not just blindly rush into a game that we'll be playing for the next 9 months or so, and that'll be used as a benchmark for the ladders system, and risk a premature drop-out of someone muttering "the start was fixed to favor so-and-so"

Apart from the various tourneys (and thanks Tau Ceti and mark13 for seting these up) which have had a lot of up-front work done by the tourney administrator, I've found that the games that collapse or frustratingly need to be restarted are those where insufficient up-front work hasn't been done.

We play for fun, and I expect (if this game lasts 300 turns) to be investing some 100 to 150 hours on it in the next year. In that context, I don't begrudge the time taken initially to "get it right"

(End of sermon)

Googlie

(Ah, the advantages of being an old fart)

**Tau Ceti** · January 24, 2001, 11:45

Edit: Ah, Googlie beat me to it. Well, the last line is still relevant.

Keygen, what Googlie actually suggested was a system where every faction got 200 'whatsits', as they have now been known - essentially mineral credits - to use for purchasing starting units. Colony Pods cost 30, scouts 10, formers 20 etc. That would give us a choice of what starting units we would like, and that was what everyone supported so far.

I also hate the Map of Planet, and would prefer a standard tech start.
[This message has been edited by Tau Ceti (edited January 24, 2001).]

**Keygen** · January 24, 2001, 12:13

Obviously I hadn't understand what exactly you ment with it .
I guess I've got misleaded from my experience in CTP. Things there are quit different. After a year being CTP PBEM gamer I could be consider an old fart too

Anyway, this one sounds far better accelerated start than the one I had proposed.
I guess the emails wasn't so informative .

Questions:
1. Googlie's fast start?
2. Second free tech?
3. Factions?
4. SMAC or SMACX?
5. Map of Planet?

I answer:
1. Yes
2. Don't care
3. University
4. Don't care
5. Random

What's your answer? Waiting .

quote:

Originally posted by Googlie on 01-24-2001 10:43 AM
We play for fun, and I expect (if this game lasts 300 turns) to be investing some 100 to 150 hours on it in the next year. In that context, I don't begrudge the time taken initially to "get it right"

It will be fun to play with you guys with the right start! I completely agree with you Googlie you old fart .

**Keygen** · January 24, 2001, 12:19

quote:

Originally posted by Tau Ceti on 01-24-2001 10:45 AM
Edit: Ah, Googlie beat me to it. Well, the last line is still relevant.

Keygen, what Googlie actually suggested was a system where every faction got 200 'whatsits', as they have now been known - essentially mineral credits - to use for purchasing starting units. Colony Pods cost 30, scouts 10, formers 20 etc. That would give us a choice of what starting units we would like, and that was what everyone supported so far.

I also hate the Map of Planet, and would prefer a standard tech start.
[This message has been edited by Tau Ceti (edited January 24, 2001).]

OK Tau Ceti, I got it!
I would like you or Googlie to send me an email whenever is possible and if not hard to do to explain me how exactly is this made.

**Tau Ceti** · January 24, 2001, 12:22

1. Yes
2. No
3. Spartans
4. SMACX
5. No, random

There is, however, one problem with Googlie's system. The CMN is supposed to set up balanced starting positions. Now let us say I take the 5 rovers. What does the CMN do? He has three options.

1. He places me on an island or somewhere else isolated. Game ruined for me.

2. He places me next to a builder-type player with 6 pods. Game ruined for him.

3. He places me next to another momentumer who has chosen 10 scouts or so. We spend the first 40 years beating each other to death, while everyone else builds up in peace. Game ruined for both of us.

It looks like going extremely offensive with your starting units will only create problems. Maybe we need some restrictions, either written or voluntary...

**big_canuk** · January 24, 2001, 12:31

1. Yes
2. No
3. Morgan
4. smacx
5. No, random

Tau:

I would say the UPN, should pick the locations first, and then get the units. 6 CPs, or 5 rovers, are both extremes, and you should suffer if you pick either and are unlucky. Of course, Tau, if you are saying that you will voluntarily limit yourself to no more than 2 rovers, then I will feel a lot better picking 6 CPs.

**Googlie** · January 24, 2001, 12:53

Fast start procedure:

Each player selects from the 'store' those pods/units he or she wants, spending 200 whatsits (all units are 'Independent')

Price:

Colony Pod 30
Sea Pod (Pirates only) 30
Unity Rover (Sparta only) 30
Unity Foil 30
gun foil (Pirates only) 30
Former 20
Scout 10

We e-mail the CMN (Dilithium Dad?) our selection, plus the University tells DD what free tech he wants, and the password we want to use (or he will choose one for each and so advise us).

These goodies are in in addition to the normal starting unit the game provides at the thinker level (i.e. not the 2 colony pods, but the independent scout each of the five other factions get and the Unity Rover Sparta gets and the gunfoil the Pirates get)

DD sets it up thru the scenario editor, on a "look first" basis, balancing each faction's start position, and setting each faction in turn with the password. He'll save as a game, and send to the first on the list who will then start playing by moving the pods, units, formers etc.

(I suggest we load the factions in the Firaxis order rather than changing, so the graphics will be true to the game - this would mean that the Gaians would start - if Solver plays as the Gaians - or the Consciousness would be second last if he plays as Aki - the Pirates will be last under both choices)

(And Tau, if indeed it is started thru the scenario - which I believe it needs to be for this method - can you ensure that Dilithium Dad is aware of the difficulty bug and how to fix it?)

I'll post the Chiron Winter rules to see if we want to abide by them for gameplay (they took a month to determine, with lots of input from Mose - - and Aredhran)

G.

[This message has been edited by Googlie (edited January 24, 2001).]

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