Keygen's Factions Strife!

[Rynn:]

Hmmmm - Pirates would be a lot of fun with this crowd

1. Yes
2. No
3. Pirates
4. smacx
5. No, Random

[Googlie]

TC:

I wrestled a bit with an extra cost for the sea colony pods (and forgot about sea formers). I started seven games on the parameters we had chosen, one for each faction, and you are right, the Pirates start with 2 pods and a gun foil, Sparta has 2 pods and a scout rover, and everyone else 2 pods and a scout infantryman. To my mind Firaxis made no differentiation (perhaps recognizing the - 1 growth penalty of the Pirates) and we have decided not to bend any other Firaxis rule for fear of upsetting a delicate game balance)

True, they get a Pressure Dome in each base. But the Hive get a Perimeter Defense, the Uni get a Network Node, Morgan gets his extra credits, and the PK's get their extra 2 pop before hab limits breached.

So why single out the Pirates?

When I devised the "purchase formula" a year or so ago it was only with the original factions in mind. I'll do a little scenario testing for mature bases (i.e. with the requisite techs) to see what comparative costs colony pods and formers have (i.e. we know that sea pods and sea formers are more expensive for a land-based faction to produce, but are they comparatively more expoensive for Sven? IIRC when playing the Pirates land CP's were cheaper than sea ones, so maybe you have a point.

Don't go away, I'll be right back .............



Googlie

[big_canuk]

Googlie:

You can always go back to being the Believers.

[Googlie]

b_c:

Hey, that's true (but I've never played as the Pirates in a PBEM, so it'd be a first to see how it stacks up against other human players - the AI plays it stupidly, and in a human's hands against the AI it's overpowering, but against other humans ...........)

(and Ulrika-Rynn Svensgaard has a certain ring to it, don't you think?)

G.

[big_canuk]

quote: Originally posted by Googlie on 01-24-2001 01:57 PM So why single out the Pirates?

I don't think this is singling out the Pirates. It seems we agree the Spartans should have a cost 30 scout rover, to avoid the rover rush.

I think it is perfectly reasonable to charge 40 or 50 whatsits for a Sea CP, since it includes tanks. Instead of 4 FOP from your initial colony, you will get 7. Seems a 33 or 66% increase in cost would be a bargain.

[Googlie]

FOP ??

[big_canuk]

FOP = Factors of Production

Normal base = 2/1/1 = 4

Base with Recycle Tanks or Pressure
Dome = 3/2/2 = 7

I think?

[Googlie]

The issue is, how fast can the respective factions expand.

For 150 whatsits the landbased players can found five bases and the next five take 14 turns (at one new pod per base after the first scout)

With Sven, assuming the same cost structure, 150 gets 5 bases, and the next five (at 1 per base) take 24 turns if seapods or 20 if a landpod/transport combo

I think I'm talking myself into arguing that the seapods should be cheaper than the landpods in the start-up



(The only slight advantage - that prolly balances things out - is that Sven can put distance between the pods faster than a landbased faction (unless use is made of rivers)

I think the cost should be the same.

Googlie

[Googlie]

Ah - no, not quite correct

Pirates, sea base HQ - no goody squares

4 nuts, 3 mins, 3 energy

Land faction, land base HQ - no goody squares

3 nuts, 2 mins, 2 energy

(exactly the effect of building recycling tanks at the land base)

Second base:

Pirates 4/3/2

land faction 3/2/1


Again, exactly the effect of building recycling tanks at the land base

(And don't the Uni get a NN at every base that the Pirates have to build, and don't the Hive get a PD at every base that the Pirates have to build and dont ...........

G.


[This message has been edited by Googlie (edited January 24, 2001).]

[big_canuk]

Nope, I just tested it.

Started a game with Lal. HQ was 2/1/2 (one extra energy casuse of HQ)
2nd base was 2/1/1

Pirates were 3/2/3, and 3/2/2 respectivly.

I found a further *big* advantage of the pirates is that within 2 turns, all of their highly productive bases will be established, whereas the land based factions may still be spreading, and may have established no bases or only 1 or 2. This is a *huge* turn advantage on its own. Couple this with Huge Planet and lots of unoccupied land, of which the Pirates can take advantage, and I think some additional cost is warranted. (Possibly even the full 60 or 70 cost of a Sea Colony Pod)

Being Morgan, I could always vote for the 30 whatsit level for say 100 ecs at turn 30 and 100 ecs every 20 turns thereafter.

[This message has been edited by big_canuk (edited January 24, 2001).]

[Rynn:]

Exactly b_c - the difference is in the automatic recycling tanks which give a 1-1-1.

But of course I won't be able to do anything with that turn advantage except build like crazy to get Network Nodes and Perimeter defenses and accumulate energy credits just to gain parity with everyone else.

But OK - I'll play as the Believers and make the whole debate moot.

Sister Rynn Googlieson

[This message has been edited by Rynn: (edited January 24, 2001).]

[big_canuk]

LOL

[Solver]

OK, here are my words on this, and that's my final:
I'm Prime Function Solver, no map of planet. I would also like to have the starting tech, and one more for Keygen, to speed the game up. Next, I vote for Googlie's "whatsit's" instead of the same for everyone. So, when we are finished, we should try to launch it at Friday, as Keygen said. Who then is CMN?

quote: Solver is an experienced SMAC player but newbie to SMAC PBEM although he has joined several CTP PBEM so he could be consider not new to the PBEM idea.

Surely, I don't consider myself being new to PBEM, as my Ladders system needs some experience. Actually, Civilization is the first game I really loved, and all of the Civ games, incuding SMAX, are yet my favorite game series.
I know I'm a SMAC PBEM newbie, but I won't consider myself one as soon as I join some 4 PBEMs. But so far, please be tolearnt to the questions I may be asking here. And on of them comes here - does SMAC automatically save the turn for the next player on the Desktop or not?

------------------
Solver - http://www.aok.20m.com

[Googlie]

Solver:

When you click on the "turn complete" button, it'll prompt you for a savefile name. The default directory should be C:/programs/firaxis games/sid meier's alpha centauri/saves, but sometimes it will inexplicably move you up a level so that you inadvertently save in the s...m...a...c... folder.

So it doesn't save in your desktop unless you specifically enter that string in.

But when you are zipping the file, most zip utilities (I've found anyway) will default save the zip file to the desktop, which makes it easy for attaching to e-mails.

G

[Tau Ceti]

A couple of comments on the purchase system:

Sea formers should probably be added.

I am not sure a price of 30 for sea colony pods is fair. I know, the Pirates do usually start with as many pods as everyone else, and the full cost of 70 is clearly excessive, but they do get a free Pressure Dome in each of those bases, which is a large advantage. When they can start with transports as well, they can expand onto land almost immediately, removing their last early disadvantage. With all this, I do not think a price hike to at least 40 would be too much.

The Spartans start with Scout Rovers, not Unity Rovers. No big thing, but Unity Rovers cannot be upgraded in the workshop, and it means they will not need to prototype the rover chassis. (Of course, that is arguably a disadvantage for the Spartans! )

big_canuk's idea about the starting positions sounds very good. Of course, it means the CMN must create the world first so that he is not influenced by the player's unit choices, and we should delay sending those emails. I have not talked to D-Dad yet as it is nice to at least reach agreement on the world parameters before asking for a game. Everyone seems to agree on huge random planet, average everything, but what about pods?

And I think we should leave the starting date up to the CMN. It is bad form to demand that the game be ready at a specific time. This will take months anyway, so if we have to wait another day or four, it is no calamity.