If you were on the U.N.S. Unity...

[Maniac]

No, im not a talent, im a KING damnit! Look at my name!

Some modesty man! You're starting to sound like me when I think nobody's listening.

And certainly capitalism is great, it is survival of the strongest in the modern world.
The strong can forge an empire on the back of the weak, and the weak resort to communism and other "I am weak so I should get free money" ideologies.

Yeah sure, I don't have anything against the "strong rule the weak" principle. I would be joining the University exactly under the assumption that intellectuals rule the weak there both eonomially and politically. So pure wild capitalism is all great when you look at a timeframe of one generation. Competition ensures the best & strong on top and the weak below. However the troubles begin with the next generation. The children of the strong aren’t necessarily strong themselves; the same counts for the children of the weak. But under pure capitalism the strong will try to ensure their children, sometimes weak and spoiled, remain powerful and therefore will oppress the sometimes strong children of the weak. So after a few generations you just get an aristocracy as in medieval Europe and the whole capitalist theory of ruling of the strong is abandoned. To avoid that you need a socialist system that ensures that each sgeneration gets more or less equal chances at the start, so the process of competition is repeated every time.

So when born in a Morganite system you’ll have the talents of a king but you won’t be able to use them since probability says you’re born in a rather poor family. While I will also be born in a poor UoP family but I’ll be able to work my way up to king/provost/whatever.
You could of course argue that the question is “Which faction would you join on the Unity?” and not “In what faction would you want to be born?”, but still it would indicate you have a big “après nous le déluge” attitude which I can’t respect at all.

Yes Morgan has money, and he doesn't need to use it on research, he can buy it from the UoP.
Remember: "Sorry no check, no tech".

Yeah right. The UoP will just found companies of their own and compete the Morganites with their obsolete techs out of the market.

You do know that Norway is the best country to live in, don't you? Even the U.N says so! And which SMAC leader represents the U.N?

And why do you think Norway would be the best country to live in? You guessed it! Thanks to the socialist infection.

[Mr. President]

I'm not going to start telling you all again how socialism is dead and that the strong have always thrived even when people don't admit it. You'll just have to read my newsletter.

[Sikander]

Re: ha ha ha, that would be me...

Originally posted by frankychan
Imagine, in the Human Hive EVERYONE is equal. African-European-Asian-Islander...everyone. No more people making 20 billion dollars/pounds/marks/etc. while others starve to death....

Yea, now everyone starves to death!

[Shai-Hulud]

This is turning into the clash of ideologies...count me in!

I don't think "19th century capitalism" could ever come to reality again although similar economic system might. The industry was far less developed at the 19th century, the rich we're less rich and poor were poorer than now. Capital is still owned mostly by capitalists, poor aren't really any more richer than capitalists even today. The social democratic effort to redistribute some of upper class wealth to lower classes haven't actually changed the proportions of capital owned by each social class.

People keep saying that if you born into the lower class you will always remain poor. I don't know where do you get this kind of idea in a Free Market Society. 90% of people are working class, but most of that today is middle-class, relatively wealthy I might add. Why would you think that middle-class wouldn't be the majority in any capitalist society?

I'm not into laisser-faire capitalism. The state is part of the economy in any major capitalist country of today. The social democratic model of social security and free school is paid with the taxes collected from wealthy and I have nothing against it. Only one must make sure that social democracy isn't perverted into socialism which is oppression of wealthy. I think state will need to remain in capitalism and carry out both political and economic responsibility.

I'm not going to say much about emphatizing Yang's totalitarian dictatorship except...Are you people sure what you're signing in for!?

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by M@ni@c


Yeah sure, I don't have anything against the "strong rule the weak" principle. I would be joining the University exactly under the assumption that intellectuals rule the weak there both eonomially and politically. So pure wild capitalism is all great when you look at a timeframe of one generation. Competition ensures the best & strong on top and the weak below. However the troubles begin with the next generation. The children of the strong aren’t necessarily strong themselves; the same counts for the children of the weak. But under pure capitalism the strong will try to ensure their children, sometimes weak and spoiled, remain powerful and therefore will oppress the sometimes strong children of the weak. So after a few generations you just get an aristocracy as in medieval Europe and the whole capitalist theory of ruling of the strong is abandoned. To avoid that you need a socialist system that ensures that each sgeneration gets more or less equal chances at the start, so the process of competition is repeated every time.

The assumption here is multiple generations. There will be multiple generations but first generational heads of family are supposedly still around thanks to Longevity Vaccine.

This kinna changes the whole dynamic as one could imagine family businesses/empires having huge impacts on economies.

Imagine Piere Dupont, Henry Ford, Dale Carnegie, and J.P. Morgan having financial and industrial empires that they oversee for centuries. Nepotism certainly would be the norm, but the actual empires would be run by the Patriach/Matriarch of the family.

Not that this makes a difference, I still favor the Morganites.

As for the others, my reasons why not:

UoP - I don't want to be a test subject. I could envision randomized experimentation using human subjects to be the norm. No thanks.

Spartans - Too Spartan. I want my creature comforts.

Hive - Utopia is one thing 1984 is quite another.

PK's - I have enuff beuracracy in my life as it is, why would I look to have more.

Gaians- While saving the planet is a valiant endevour, I find at least in todays society the radical fringe completely turns me off. (Jus my feelings)

Believer's - Again too radical for my tastes.


Og

[johndmuller]

Originally posted by Shai-Hulud
This is turning into the clash of ideologies...count me in!
. . . .
I'm not into laisser-faire capitalism. The state is part of the economy in any major capitalist country of today. The social democratic model of social security and free school is paid with the taxes collected from wealthy and I have nothing against it. Only one must make sure that social democracy isn't perverted into socialism which is oppression of wealthy. I think state will need to remain in capitalism and carry out both political and economic responsibility.
. . . .

I'd say that the wealthy are probably not the ones who are paying for the benefits - perhaps more than their percapita share, but a far cry from an amount pro rated by income - if anyone is helping to pay the share of the poor, it is the middle and lower classes.

[Supply Crawler]

The eighth faction - A cartoon strip

So, I’m in the Unity… things are going bad. Walls are rattling. We’re going down soon. That morning the Unity Herald tells about the seven pods and the seven leaders. I decide to go and listen to their agendas for the new planet and colony.

I walk in to the conference room when Chairman Yang is talking how he will achieve a perfect society base on equality, with him as a supreme super powerful leader with, of course, a very small upper class with supper powers an a huge oppressed lower class. Every body that resist would be nerve stapled. He cites examples like China and the USSR. So I’ll be poor, oppressed and miserable, but at least every body would be the same, except Yang, his family and his friends…I leave after I write a note, feeling I still have my freedom of expression “Dear Chairman, you are crazy, I hope your pod burns, crash and burn some more”

Santiago is telling her followers that they will adapt. That sounds cool, I can agree. “We will adapt, we will use the terrain, the air and sea. We will conquer and use any base someone else builds for us!” Err… what if every body in the unity decides to follow you, or nobody else makes it, what would your agenda be? Well, I would expel half of our group, then declare war on them, then we would adapt with superior weapons…” I leave the room not interested any more.

“How are we going to decide where to start the colony?”
“We would pray” Miriam says. “What about surviving the new environment” “We would pray” “and living space?” “We would pry while we wage a holy war against the people that actually built something” “What about breathing?” “Pray” “Well Sister I doubt…” “YOU WHAT!!! Doubt!!! You will be burn in a stake right here!!!”. Needles to say I leave in a hate, not really convinced.

“How are we going to build our new base?” “Build? o no, we would buy it, of course we would assure it is of the finest quality with leather seats” Morgan replies to me. “But who is going to build it for us and how are we going to pay for it.” “Well, we are going to create this thing that is called Energy Credits. We would lend them, charge interest, generate wealth by commerce and then with the revenue we would buy a base.” “Sounds good, but what if we are alone in the planet?” “Well, we would still use EC, but we have no impediments to charging huge amount of interests in an uncontrolled free market economy from which we would have a monopoly…” “But who would build the base?” “…. As I said before, we would buy it! You are slow, aren’t you son?” I leave the conference room feeling ripped-off because of the 50EC cover fee I had to pay… and there was no diner.

“…so the sodium atom stops and tell the potassium atom, ‘wait I’ve lost an electron’ and the potassium atom asks ‘are you sure’ ‘Yes, I’m positive!’ ” with which Zakarov relaxes the crowd gathered in a classroom. He continues his detailed explanation of how the pod will do its insertion based on a Model Predictive Control algorithm. That’s neat, a plan to survive entrance and some jokes. I have a seat in my classroom chair ready to take notes. “We will create a society in which the techno-geeks will rule, computer size will matter, glasses and a pale greenish skin will be cool, chemistry talk in parties will be the norm, just like when we were in grad school…” he is interrupted by cheers in the crowd, mostly engineers, chemists, statisticians, software programmers, etc. “The social study branch will be able to complaint all you want, until your are red in the face!!!” Loud cheers by the psychologists, sociologists, philosophers. “We would all use unexpecting sectors of the population to test all our theories! Head implants and experiment on the masses would be the mandatory…” The masses cheer because they don’t want to feel left out and they want to create an impression that they understood what he just said. They just liked the idea of larger computers and a dishwasher…now I understand why I got an ID-microchip implant at the door. Still curious I asked: “What about us that wouldn’t work on science stuff?” “Sorry, I don’t speak to leaser beings. Next question, and this time make it an interesting one…”

Lal is good at public speech. He is unclear but uses strange comforting words like ‘assertive respect’ and ‘social cohesion’. “And how are we going to deal with the new environment?” “We make sure public consultation is respected to assure the highest standards where to lift a platform from where we would launch proposal for hearings in regards of future ideology” “Err… sorry I meant the new atmosphere, as in no breathable air, aggressive native life, Spartans waging war, Morganite wanting to buy bases and such.” “We would create committees that would outline general rules for the new systems that would create a base for guidelines-creation, that would establish the follow-up model for benchmarking acceptable social rules in which we would suggest such action to be unacceptable.” We voted on the motion. When the votes were counted Lal had 50 more votes than people in the room. Not sure of what he just proposed, I asked “What if that doesn’t work.?” “We’ll we just backstab some faction, take their bases and reestablish a social rhetoric.” Before I left, I found my dead cat and I had just voted for him again, twice.

The garden in the Unity had a sign at the gates “No shoes or jacket aloud.” Weird, but still not that radical. “We would adapt” said Deidre. I’m ready to run out like crazy, but the next fraise is not that bad “We will study Planet, we would use its life forms to our advantage, its resources with moderation. Humans have survived by adapting and we will again. We will apply science to the benefit of humans, the ‘life forms’ and Planet. We will reduce, reuse and recycle.” No wild cheers, no blind fanatics, just nods of understanding. Hey! This is pretty good, I can live with it, I thought to my self, still, wanting to make sure I asked: “So you don’t have a plans for world domination or slavery of human or native life? Staple citizens? Planet resource exploitation perhaps?”
“Who is this freak! Would someone please volunteer to kick this clown out of here!?” “No wait, I can explain!...” too late, out I went and the garden gates were closed behind me.

Now I’m the eight faction, the one that decided to stay in the Unity. How beautiful does the flame spark when there are different elements burning in the outer atmosphere…

[sjkane]

Based on the available choices, I'd go Spartan - Where else would you get paid to train and work out? However, if I had any choice, it would definitley be the Pirates. Not only get paid to work out, but to surf and dive? Life is good.

[Lodi]

Univ of Planet

[Blake]

The factions I would join up with:
Morganites. A faction which emphasises the good life, I could cope.
University. Seems like a pretty good place for a geek.
UN Peacekeepers. It would seem the UN would be a fairly safe faction to join.
Spartans. I'm flexible, I don't really pursue material posessions. I quite enjoy survivalist type activities. I can handle firearms.
Gaians. A very noble faction, emphasis on freedom, and I bet the food would be better too.
Data Angels. Geek Haven.
CyC. I've always wanted an implant.

And the others, I would only join if it was the only way to avoid firey oblivion (followed by big cratering).
Believers. I'd sooner rot in hell than join Miriams fanatics.
Hive. Too dangerous.
Drones. Two words, "Human Wave".
Pirates. I hate boats and the ocean.
Cult. Uh-nah.

PS: I didn't think you got paid in the spartan army

[Archaic]

Simple choice for me. UoP. Screw ethics. It's not like being ethical has ever got anyone anywhere afterall. How many famous leaders from history who weren't a) Assassinated or b) Corrupt are there in comparison to the Corrupt ones? Not all that many.

[Atlas3060]

Originally posted by Blake

Cult. Uh-nah.

PS: I didn't think you got paid in the spartan army

Prophet Cha Dawn reminds me of that Eddie Murphy movie called 'Golden Child'

And yes they do pay you, in a very crudy payment plan.

[Alinestra Covelia]

I am the hundredth voter! Yay!

I'd go with the Hive. I have no problem following orders, living in underground conditions, or testing out new and exciting flavors of social engineering.

[jones]

Hmm.. gee.. I wonder

Although I'm a capitalist to the core, most academics are known for their leftist/liberal social views, and so I think Zak would provide a functioning society while ensuring that research and pure science TOOK THEIR RIGHTFUL PLACE IN THE HIERARCHY!!! HAHAHAHH!!

Sorry. Anyway, I hope some of you get Sik riled up on socialism. He made a few posts a while back to an old thread of Allie Cove's that make for interesting reading

[Maniac]

Mr. President:

I'm not going to start telling you all again how socialism is dead and that the strong have always thrived even when people don't admit it. You'll just have to read my newsletter.

Right. Perhaps in America where you have the choice between a centrum-right and an extreme right party. But here in Europe socialist (= social-democratic) parties still get quite a large percentage of the votes. Though admittedly after the Second World War their vote total is gradually declining, which can be explained by two reasons. First, they realized most of their aims. Second, people with a good living standard always tend to vote more individualist/right. Essentially they just digged their own grave with their succes.
However a quick look at history shows us that when there’s a serious economic crisis people will again vote on socialism.

Also there’s a strong democratic-globalist movement. They advocate socialist ideas. And though the classical social-democratic parties are declining, the green parties with their left ideas are still rising in importance. But unfortunately for a science & progress lover as me they usually also have conservative tendencies regarding technology.

So I really can’t understand it when you say socialism is dead.

The strong have always thrived? That’s a bit of a generalization. So emperors like Nero and Caligula came to power because they had the qualities of an emperor, and not because they happened to be related to previous emperors? What newsletter btw?

Shai-Hulud:

Why would you think that middle-class wouldn't be the majority in any capitalist society?

Perhaps because not every society can give all low-wage jobs to foreign workers.

Ogie:

Hmm. You do have a point. Longevity would change it all. But the same people ruling for centuries? Wouldn’t that lead to conservatism? A society stagnated on 21th century ethics with all its consequences? Besides, man corrupts power (or vice versa, whatever you like ) and not even the ‘strong’ are perfect. Ruling for centuries will eventually lead to unhealthy megalomania and hybris.

Anyway, my full list would be:

1.Surprise surprise: UoP, though I sure hope they have a place for not-exact scientists. I would hate actually having to learn all that boring chemistry and physics stuff. Leave that to the lab rats.
2. PK: Too ethic-minded morale knights for my taste, but I could bear.
3. Gaia: I suppose building a durable recycling society isn’t that bad an idea on Chiron.
4. Sparta: the same. For a hostile world a survivalist doctrine isn’t that bad.
5. Morgan: well if I really have to. O sweet decadence!
6. Hive: at least here I could dream of a rebellion,...
7. Believers: while here my fellow faction members would be too brainwashed...

M@ni@c