Non Lethal Methods and Yang

[Blake]

I usually choose oponents which start with Cent.Eco (Aliens, Gaians, Cult) as these all build formers early. The land is so terrible the AI has no choice but to plant forest (which is almost exactly the same as a human does). Later they also build a few condensors.

However the other factions often don't bother researching cent eco, believers particullary often totally stall on such arid maps. But the aliens have no problem.

[Ned]

Gentlemen, I do not debate that IA is a tremedous tech to get for any faction. It allows several bases to contribute to producing SP's. It allows a boost of mineral production until the Planet screams in protest. Ditto energy and minerals. However, w/o Non Lethal Methods, Yang will still have small bases and be cash poor. This forces one to ICS. But that causes Bureaucracy drones, which further hampers Yang's development.

As you can see, I am a builder. I usually like to play on 180x180 maps. With this size map, the AI forces are not in constant combat. They tend to develop infrastructure at about the same pace the human player does. It makes for a very interesting game. Also, I do not like managing a large number of bases. It makes the game tedious. I would prefer to win with around the number at the first Bureaucracy warning, which in a 180x180 map is around 15.

Actually, I won my most recent game with only seven core bases. I had to pod boom and crawl energy from the sea like mad, but it was really interesting keeping up with AI factions like Aki that had 30+ bases.

[Blake]

quote: However, w/o Non Lethal Methods, Yang will still have small bases and be cash poor. This forces one to ICS

Ned, are you sure you understand the yang-specialist strategy? By crawling food to bases you can turn most of the population into specialists. Without IntInt you can't have a large number of workers per base, but a size 7 base with 3 workers and 4 specialists (supported by crawlers) only requires 3 standard scout patrols to control drones. And there is NO way (in the early game) you can create more energy with 4 workers than 4 specialists. If the first 2 workers work boreholes in both cases, then the only way 4 workers beat 4 specialists is tidal harnass+thermocline, which requires a hefty amount of tech.

I am not an ICS'er, maybe a CS'er , I stop after about 10 cities, but I make sure to get those cities as soon as is reasonably possible.

So if you are determined not to use specialists then intint is indeed essential for builder yang, but if you choose the (more powerfull) specialist approach intint is almost completely reduntant. It really depends on how fond you are of having screenfulls of formers and crawlers.

[Ned]

Blake, Yes I think I understand using technicians to produce economy (+2), without loss. However, the central problem I have with using a worker as a specialist is that that worker "could" produce food, minerals and energy. Early in the game, specialists produce only energy or labs, not both.

The problem of loss due to distance is somewhat solved if one keeps his empire small and bases close to home base.

But to do the specialist approach crawling both food and minerals, you really need a lot of crawlers or the Weather SP. (And I suppost, what you do is make farms on moist ground, rather that forests. Not so? Later, when you get tree farms, you redo the farms into forests.)

[johndmuller]

One of the nicest things about playing Yang is that you don't have to spend years fighting him later in the game.

The apparent fact that Yang gets to start in the Monsoon Jungle more than chance would reasonably allow (as AI Yang anyway - does anyone have a feel as to whether Human Yang gets this edge too?) gives him the extra food allowing for a higher (and quicker) population than would otherwise be the case in different neighborhood. The jungle facillitates growth no matter what strategy you are consciously following; its hard to keep the numbers down, they're growing like weeds; time to swarm.

[Sikander]

quote: Originally posted by Ned on 04-17-2001 11:47 AM Blake, Yes I think I understand using technicians to produce economy (+2), without loss. However, the central problem I have with using a worker as a specialist is that that worker "could" produce food, minerals and energy. Early in the game, specialists produce only energy or labs, not both.

Well you could mix up your specialists any way you like. Librarian, technician, doctor, whatever you need. It's very flexible, unlike energy allocation which is difficult without a paradigm economy, and it is base specific unlike energy allocation, so you can only use the doctors you really need. (Though you may not need any, as your population is under control due to specialists!)

As for the portability of workers, they are pretty useful in that way. I replace them with crawlers for food and minerals, using the specialist to take care of the energy needs of my empire. Fortunately, crawlers are even more portable than workers, since they can harvest resources from outside the base radius. This allows me to continue to expand a base's production beyond what it could normally expect from a worker based economy.

"But to do the specialist approach crawling both food and minerals, you really need a lot of crawlers or the Weather SP. (And I suppost, what you do is make farms on moist ground, rather that forests. Not so? Later, when you get tree farms, you redo the farms into forests.)"

Crawlers are cheap when your first few are set to harvest minerals. Once you get 15+ mins it only takes two turns to crank out a crawler. Two turns production can yield a whole lot throughout the game. Assuming only two nutrients yield for a crawler, that production can yield a librarian (3 labs). Compare that to a biology lab for two labs with upkeep. A crawler on a roaded mine will pay for itself in 4 turns, or 8 turns before restrictions are lifted.

I don't ever look back (ie foresting after tree farms). The production of forests with workers though good just doesn't stack up to that of a specialist approach. Look at the numbers:

Forest with Tree Farm = 2 food (feeds the worker) + 2 nuts + 2 energy. Total = 4 FOP net.

Forest with Tree Farm and Hybrid Forest = 3 nuts, 2 mins, 3 energy. Add the extra nut in the form of a specialist (engineer) = +2.5 energy. Total = 7.5 FOP per square.

Farm and condensor crawled = 4 food = 6 energy with Librarians, 8 energy with Empaths or Thinkers (though the psych may be wasted), and 10 Energy with Engineers. All that, and no drones, no energy lost to inefficiency, and the flexibility to allocate your energy as you see fit without running a paradigm economy. It's even better with soil enrichers, where the output from engineers = 15 energy.

The squares I do work are boreholes (12 fop) and shelf squares with kelp / harnesses (4 energy + food for 1 specialist = 9.5 energy total assuming engineers)

The cost to this extra production is terraforming and crawlers. Both can be a good bit steeper initially than simply foresting and working, but the payoff is higher production and no support cost in the long run.

[DilithiumDad]

I rarely use specialists as Yang, even though I go crazy for specialists as Didi, Lal or Zach. The reason is that I wnat maximum excess nutrients to grow my population. Sure, crawl in nutrients, but use them to grow the pop of The Hive in particular but also your other inner-ring bases.

------------------
Creator of the Ultimate Builder Map, based on the Huge Map of Planet, available at The Chironian Guild:
http://guild.ask-klan.net.pl/eng/index.html

[Alinestra Covelia]

quote: Originally posted by johndmuller on 04-17-2001 08:21 PM The apparent fact that Yang gets to start in the Monsoon Jungle more than chance would reasonably allow (as AI Yang anyway - does anyone have a feel as to whether Human Yang gets this edge too?) gives him the extra food allowing for a higher (and quicker) population than would otherwise be the case in different neighborhood.

Funny you should say that. I'm playing as everybody's favorite Chairman in no fewer than two PBEM games, and in each case I have turfed up very close to the Monsoon Jungle.

Normally I'd say this was a fiddle, but seeing as I ought to be in character I will merely murmur something about Einstein turning in his grave.

[Sikander]

Dilithium Dad,

I use specialists a lot with most factions for a couple of reasons. Firstly, they can really help minimize the effects of low or moderate efficiency in several ways. Obviously one of the main ways they do so is by producing energy without losses to inefficiency. Secondly, they reduce drone troubles by taking workers off the land, making them immune to becoming drones. This same principal allows for greater horizontal expansion, and the drones which come with it.

I don't trade growth rate for specialist income though, I trade minerals for energy. A one time price of 1 or two turns production produces a crawler, which replaces a worker on a condensor / farm or mine. This worker then produces a decent amount of energy (actually labs, econ or psych) without further cost to me. As long as I have terraformed squares available, I can pop boom industrially through crawler production.

Another advantage of this system is that it makes maximum use of space. Every square ends up highly terraformed, and every base ends up with at least 10 specialists pre-hab domes. The bases are close together, two or three squares away from each other, which minimizes their distance from the HQ and also minimizes the time necesary to place them early on. They are also easier to defend due to their proximity. One disadvantage to this system is that I am not denying huge areas to other factions by spreading out more. Since I tend to play on huge maps, the extent to which that is possible is not all that great anyway, though on standard and smaller maps it would be something to consider.

[Ned]

Sikander, I can see the advantages of producing energy or labs through specialists if there are significant loses through distance or other inefficiencies. (Actually, the specialist approach recommends police state/planned, since even -4 efficiency can still yield significant income!) I would add that pod booming would seem to be an additional feature that one should add to this scheme. One could, I imagine, work most of the base square's forests, crawl food from farms/condensors, an still have a number of specialist producing labs and energy - all this before Hab Domes!