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Non Lethal Methods and Yang

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  • Ned
    replied
    Sikander, I can see the advantages of producing energy or labs through specialists if there are significant loses through distance or other inefficiencies. (Actually, the specialist approach recommends police state/planned, since even -4 efficiency can still yield significant income!) I would add that pod booming would seem to be an additional feature that one should add to this scheme. One could, I imagine, work most of the base square's forests, crawl food from farms/condensors, an still have a number of specialist producing labs and energy - all this before Hab Domes!

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  • Sikander
    replied
    Dilithium Dad,

    I use specialists a lot with most factions for a couple of reasons. Firstly, they can really help minimize the effects of low or moderate efficiency in several ways. Obviously one of the main ways they do so is by producing energy without losses to inefficiency. Secondly, they reduce drone troubles by taking workers off the land, making them immune to becoming drones. This same principal allows for greater horizontal expansion, and the drones which come with it.

    I don't trade growth rate for specialist income though, I trade minerals for energy. A one time price of 1 or two turns production produces a crawler, which replaces a worker on a condensor / farm or mine. This worker then produces a decent amount of energy (actually labs, econ or psych) without further cost to me. As long as I have terraformed squares available, I can pop boom industrially through crawler production.

    Another advantage of this system is that it makes maximum use of space. Every square ends up highly terraformed, and every base ends up with at least 10 specialists pre-hab domes. The bases are close together, two or three squares away from each other, which minimizes their distance from the HQ and also minimizes the time necesary to place them early on. They are also easier to defend due to their proximity. One disadvantage to this system is that I am not denying huge areas to other factions by spreading out more. Since I tend to play on huge maps, the extent to which that is possible is not all that great anyway, though on standard and smaller maps it would be something to consider.

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  • Alinestra Covelia
    replied
    quote:

    Originally posted by johndmuller on 04-17-2001 08:21 PM
    The apparent fact that Yang gets to start in the Monsoon Jungle more than chance would reasonably allow (as AI Yang anyway - does anyone have a feel as to whether Human Yang gets this edge too?) gives him the extra food allowing for a higher (and quicker) population than would otherwise be the case in different neighborhood.


    Funny you should say that. I'm playing as everybody's favorite Chairman in no fewer than two PBEM games, and in each case I have turfed up very close to the Monsoon Jungle.

    Normally I'd say this was a fiddle, but seeing as I ought to be in character I will merely murmur something about Einstein turning in his grave.

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  • DilithiumDad
    replied
    I rarely use specialists as Yang, even though I go crazy for specialists as Didi, Lal or Zach. The reason is that I wnat maximum excess nutrients to grow my population. Sure, crawl in nutrients, but use them to grow the pop of The Hive in particular but also your other inner-ring bases.

    ------------------
    Creator of the Ultimate Builder Map, based on the Huge Map of Planet, available at The Chironian Guild:
    http://guild.ask-klan.net.pl/eng/index.html

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  • Sikander
    replied
    quote:

    Originally posted by Ned on 04-17-2001 11:47 AM
    Blake, Yes I think I understand using technicians to produce economy (+2), without loss. However, the central problem I have with using a worker as a specialist is that that worker "could" produce food, minerals and energy. Early in the game, specialists produce only energy or labs, not both.


    Well you could mix up your specialists any way you like. Librarian, technician, doctor, whatever you need. It's very flexible, unlike energy allocation which is difficult without a paradigm economy, and it is base specific unlike energy allocation, so you can only use the doctors you really need. (Though you may not need any, as your population is under control due to specialists!)

    As for the portability of workers, they are pretty useful in that way. I replace them with crawlers for food and minerals, using the specialist to take care of the energy needs of my empire. Fortunately, crawlers are even more portable than workers, since they can harvest resources from outside the base radius. This allows me to continue to expand a base's production beyond what it could normally expect from a worker based economy.

    "But to do the specialist approach crawling both food and minerals, you really need a lot of crawlers or the Weather SP. (And I suppost, what you do is make farms on moist ground, rather that forests. Not so? Later, when you get tree farms, you redo the farms into forests.)"

    Crawlers are cheap when your first few are set to harvest minerals. Once you get 15+ mins it only takes two turns to crank out a crawler. Two turns production can yield a whole lot throughout the game. Assuming only two nutrients yield for a crawler, that production can yield a librarian (3 labs). Compare that to a biology lab for two labs with upkeep. A crawler on a roaded mine will pay for itself in 4 turns, or 8 turns before restrictions are lifted.

    I don't ever look back (ie foresting after tree farms). The production of forests with workers though good just doesn't stack up to that of a specialist approach. Look at the numbers:

    Forest with Tree Farm = 2 food (feeds the worker) + 2 nuts + 2 energy. Total = 4 FOP net.

    Forest with Tree Farm and Hybrid Forest = 3 nuts, 2 mins, 3 energy. Add the extra nut in the form of a specialist (engineer) = +2.5 energy. Total = 7.5 FOP per square.

    Farm and condensor crawled = 4 food = 6 energy with Librarians, 8 energy with Empaths or Thinkers (though the psych may be wasted), and 10 Energy with Engineers. All that, and no drones, no energy lost to inefficiency, and the flexibility to allocate your energy as you see fit without running a paradigm economy. It's even better with soil enrichers, where the output from engineers = 15 energy.

    The squares I do work are boreholes (12 fop) and shelf squares with kelp / harnesses (4 energy + food for 1 specialist = 9.5 energy total assuming engineers)

    The cost to this extra production is terraforming and crawlers. Both can be a good bit steeper initially than simply foresting and working, but the payoff is higher production and no support cost in the long run.

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  • johndmuller
    replied
    One of the nicest things about playing Yang is that you don't have to spend years fighting him later in the game.

    The apparent fact that Yang gets to start in the Monsoon Jungle more than chance would reasonably allow (as AI Yang anyway - does anyone have a feel as to whether Human Yang gets this edge too?) gives him the extra food allowing for a higher (and quicker) population than would otherwise be the case in different neighborhood. The jungle facillitates growth no matter what strategy you are consciously following; its hard to keep the numbers down, they're growing like weeds; time to swarm.

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  • Ned
    replied
    Blake, Yes I think I understand using technicians to produce economy (+2), without loss. However, the central problem I have with using a worker as a specialist is that that worker "could" produce food, minerals and energy. Early in the game, specialists produce only energy or labs, not both.

    The problem of loss due to distance is somewhat solved if one keeps his empire small and bases close to home base.

    But to do the specialist approach crawling both food and minerals, you really need a lot of crawlers or the Weather SP. (And I suppost, what you do is make farms on moist ground, rather that forests. Not so? Later, when you get tree farms, you redo the farms into forests.)

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  • Blake
    replied
    quote:

    However, w/o Non Lethal Methods, Yang will still have small bases and be cash poor. This forces one to ICS


    Ned, are you sure you understand the yang-specialist strategy? By crawling food to bases you can turn most of the population into specialists. Without IntInt you can't have a large number of workers per base, but a size 7 base with 3 workers and 4 specialists (supported by crawlers) only requires 3 standard scout patrols to control drones. And there is NO way (in the early game) you can create more energy with 4 workers than 4 specialists. If the first 2 workers work boreholes in both cases, then the only way 4 workers beat 4 specialists is tidal harnass+thermocline, which requires a hefty amount of tech.

    I am not an ICS'er, maybe a CS'er , I stop after about 10 cities, but I make sure to get those cities as soon as is reasonably possible.

    So if you are determined not to use specialists then intint is indeed essential for builder yang, but if you choose the (more powerfull) specialist approach intint is almost completely reduntant. It really depends on how fond you are of having screenfulls of formers and crawlers.

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  • Ned
    replied
    Gentlemen, I do not debate that IA is a tremedous tech to get for any faction. It allows several bases to contribute to producing SP's. It allows a boost of mineral production until the Planet screams in protest. Ditto energy and minerals. However, w/o Non Lethal Methods, Yang will still have small bases and be cash poor. This forces one to ICS. But that causes Bureaucracy drones, which further hampers Yang's development.

    As you can see, I am a builder. I usually like to play on 180x180 maps. With this size map, the AI forces are not in constant combat. They tend to develop infrastructure at about the same pace the human player does. It makes for a very interesting game. Also, I do not like managing a large number of bases. It makes the game tedious. I would prefer to win with around the number at the first Bureaucracy warning, which in a 180x180 map is around 15.

    Actually, I won my most recent game with only seven core bases. I had to pod boom and crawl energy from the sea like mad, but it was really interesting keeping up with AI factions like Aki that had 30+ bases.

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  • Blake
    replied
    I usually choose oponents which start with Cent.Eco (Aliens, Gaians, Cult) as these all build formers early. The land is so terrible the AI has no choice but to plant forest (which is almost exactly the same as a human does). Later they also build a few condensors.

    However the other factions often don't bother researching cent eco, believers particullary often totally stall on such arid maps. But the aliens have no problem.

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  • Sikander
    replied
    Ogie,

    Good to see you are still lurking buddy!

    Blake,

    I tried the strategy out to about m.y. 2060 today. No problems at all, except I started on an island just small enough to not qualify for a unity transport. I went for Cent. Ecology 1st, and then straight to Ind. Auto. I had crawlers at about 2055 (I had the WP built about 2050). By 2060 I had raised two corners of my island to connect to two other islands, about doubling my available land area, had built the Command Nexus, and two condensors. I have the VW about 50% completed as well. My island is otherwise 90% forested and mined. I see nothing but smooth sailing ahead, as I am experienced in terraforming, crawlers and specialists.

    The Planet I created was huge, low erosion, low rainfall (very advantageous for the human player as the AI doesn't terraform well) medium native life, pods on. Seems a good strategy, though it will be a while before I can lift all the restrictions. Until then I'll keep busy with both horizontal and vertical growth.

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  • Ogie Oglethorpe
    replied
    Blake and Sik,

    I couldn't have said it better. Yang screams to be played as a faction heavy on the specialists.

    Consider running police a boon with the extra support making an army of formers begging to be put to work making condensor farms (assuming WP of course).

    This also plays to his tendency/necessity to ICS like mad. All those size 5 bases having 2 librarians and/or techinicans make a huge windfall in terms of econ or research sans efficiency losses which otherwise would cripple his energy gains from his ICS'd empire. PTS is a very important SP as well as it jump starts his ability to get to size 5 ASAP. If you can get HGP your home free, between the talent and a police unit(s). Of course once you have PTS you are set to PTS pod boom as well.

    So I agree whole heartedly his first priority is a run toward IA. (But I guess the same arguement could be applied to all factions going for IA, but for Yang there are some very significant bonuses.)

    Ned I think one of the problems/pitfalls you may be experiencing is the mindset that you think you need to build infrastructure with Yang in order to quell drones else the need for Intellectual Integrity and nonlethal (which is a great tech for Yang but to my mind comes into play somewhere in the mid game once Yang is on the offensive and is used to quell captured bases). Yang b/c he is energy strapped needs to shy away from facilities and the maintentance upkeep. Only after wealth is in play and a number of size 5's exist do I normally try to develop infrastructure. The exception of course being recycle tanks. Other than that I may have a sprinkling of rec commons and nodes an occasional creche to get to size 5 quicker, but really until IA rolls around I'm busiest making a garrison, building formers, and of course more pods.

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  • Blake
    replied
    It is actually quite easy to build up a size 5 city for Yang, assuming you got the WP, Yang has an excellent chance of getting the WP, he has +1 industry and +2 police,support going for him, so you can have a size 4 base with 0 minerals used on support, not bad really. The main thing which would stop you getting the WP is someone else cashing in AA's.

    The map settings I tend to use are:
    Huge/High Erosion/Arid , and either high or low native life.
    No pod scattering.
    Directed Research

    This is somewhat different from low erosion, high rainfall and pod scattering on, and would change my opinion of the value of IntInt somewhat.

    So resources are pretty thin, no income from pods and very limited terrain for base growth. Thus Cent.Eco is a very high priority for me, and I start planting forest. Bases with a nutrient resources get building pods, bases without build a couple of formers then a pod. One base with a nut resource is grown or pod-boomed up to size 4 and used to build the WP, and pre-crawler I also use probeteams to hurry the WP if I think I am falling behind (probe teams not needing support, and very handy to have lying around).

    After cent-eco I beeline to IndAuto, I don't think you can research that directely so I grab Social Pysch too. This research can take a while, and I've probably finished WP before getting crawlers. So I get my 2 formers per base to build condensors, these are done in no time, gangs of 4 formers finish a condensor in 2 turns. Then work the condensors, once a base reaches size 5 convert 2 workers to libarians. As soon as IndAuto arrives get crawling the Condensors, I always crawl nutrients in favour of minerals, this supports lots of specialists. Once a base is crawling 1 or 2 condensors I start crawling forest. I build little other than crawlers and formers for a long time, I end up with quite a lot of specialists, and few facilities. I like to drill a few rivers, every bit of energy helps after all. I stop building crawlers once I've ran out of SP's to build. Now I work on facilities, building up to my pop-boom and complete global domination.

    So when I play Yang I am far from energy poor, I also have only 2 or 3 workers per base (= no drones), the rest are high quality specialists. My choice of conditions means that the PTS is as much a curse as blessing, I would need significant terraforming in order to stop a base starving.

    I can see the merit of ICS'ing and heading to IndAuto, but surely that would require a rainy, low-med erosion map. My strategy pretty much assumes worst case conditions.

    If I fail to get the WP... well, I guess I would just build more bases, build the CN and play Yang like most people think he should be played. (+2 support = lotsa military, rather than +2 support = former hoardes)

    edit: In reply to ned's reply to my second reply by "cash poor" I mean cash poor compared to a Free marketeer, so I have plenty of cash for facility upkeep, selective upgrades and selective rushbuys (tanks, commons, netnodes), but not enough to throw into rushbuying hybrids at 300 a pop. Now once fusion labs and engineers have come along...
    Also my WP centered strategy works equally well on doubleblind, it's just the bee-line to IndAuto could take 150 years. It also works for any faction which can snag the WP, but Hive, Drones, Believers benefit most.
    [This message has been edited by Blake (edited April 11, 2001).]

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  • Sikander
    replied
    Ned et al,

    I admit to having played Yang only twice, and probably not particularly well at that. But perhaps a terraforming / specialist strategy would be useful to overcome Yang's money woes (as described by Ned). By using condensor / farms, and either crawling them (if you have IA) or even working them you should be able to create some cash flow by using specialists. Since Yang has some trouble Pop Booming it seems best to use crawlers if possible. Another bonus here is that by using specialists the need for Rec Commons / Holo Theatres is reduced. (Really, once you have crawlers there is no need to have any workers at all in the extreme case, though you will obviously want some for high production squares like boreholes eventually.) Of course you will want the WP so that you can build the condensors early, but you will not need to lift nutrient restrictions in order to get the 4 nuts. Certainly Yang's support with PS works well with a terraforming sttrategy as Blake points out.

    One problem with this strategy could be the difficulty in getting your bases up to 5 pop in order to have a choice of specialists. Yang is well suited to getting around this though, as he has excellent growth running planned, and excellent industry also. Simply grow your bases by crawling Nuts, or pod boom by crawling Mins and / or Nuts to a small base which will quickly grow back to two pop. (The PTS strategy of disbanding and rebuilding a base will also do well for this.) It is interesting that both Blake and Aginor are advocates of fairly early crawler use by Yang, as it wouldn't seem to be Yang's bag, baby. It does seem to be a strong strategy though, especially if you can get IA as early as they seem to.

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  • Ned
    replied
    Aginor, I agree that Yang with Polic State, Planned and Wealth is one of the best combinations the game has to offer. However, I have run into definite cash problems if I get IA long before I get Intellectual Integrity. What happens is that Yang overbuilds expensive facilities while his bases remain small. Compounding the problem is that one has to have expensive rec commons, holos and research hospitals to grow the bases to add income. Add these expensive facilities these to most of Yang's bases and you will find you are completely out of money, so much so that you will either have to sell facilities or decrease research. I have actually been in this situation with Yang. It is not pleasant. Ned

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