Early game secret projects - how and when to build them?

[Minute Mirage]

Originally posted by BustaMike

I actually find that I don't build the VW with the University to often if I have a choice. This isn't necessarily a better way to go, it's just how I play. I think the University's greatest strength is it's ability to get MMI first. Even if you only have choppers for 5 turns before your opponents get them you can devastate another faction to a point that basically seals the game for you. That's how I play the Univ. Since the VW is more of a builder style SP, it's not really the one I would go for.

What are your beelines if you play the Uni like this? Do you still go first for IA and then straight to MMI, without worrying about restriction lifting?

Originally posted by BustaMike
I also like to build lots of formers, at the bare minimum one per base. Ideally I like to find rocky + mineral resource squares early on. A seven mineral square pre-lifted restrictions is awesome. If I can't find those, I'll usually accept the extra support in bases that have extra minerals.

At what stage do you build the second former? Do you build it after you have stopped building colony pods with that base?

[Curiosity]

Originally posted by Minute Mirage


Are you talking about single player or multiplayer? Do you expect to get the HGP, the WP and the PTS in MP?

I think that one point about MP, is that it's usually unpredictable. If 3 players start close together then it's possible for the fourth to sweep the early SPs while the other fight it out; if one player is playing a tech faction and the other isn't then they can get most of the SPs by using crawlers wisely.

Generally, assume that most things are going to be harder in MP, but sometimes they can be a lot easier.

How many bases do you devote for the first SP(s), how many bases do you have at that point, and how many do you leave for continuing expansion?

Depends very much on faction, SE choices etc. Typically I would stop expanding whenever I can't handle the drones and build the HGP, which only takes 4 bases building a crawler apiece if I have SotHB.

[Minute Mirage]

Originally posted by Curiosity

Depends very much on faction, SE choices etc. Typically I would stop expanding whenever I can't handle the drones and build the HGP, which only takes 4 bases building a crawler apiece if I have SotHB.

I assume you mean upgrading to synthmetal trance crawlers? How do you get the cash for this, are you running FM? Is crawler upgrading normally allowed in the MP games you play?

[BustaMike]

What are your beelines if you play the Uni like this? Do you still go first for IA and then straight to MMI, without worrying about restriction lifting?

Always IA immediately... IMO it's the most important early tech, then usually I'll head for MMI depending on how quick I can get it. Tech trading makes this much easier. One strategy I've used before is stockpiling a bunch of crawlers before you reach MMI. As soon as you get it switch every base over to building a prototype chopper. Crawlers can be used to build prototypes . Give all your bases enough minerals from the crawlers so that a regular unit can be finished and rush one prototype with crawlers or cash. This essentially allows you to start mass producing choppers before the appropriate tech with no penalty .

At what stage do you build the second former? Do you build it after you have stopped building colony pods with that base?

It depends a lot on the terrain. If I have good squares (i.e. rainy, rolling) I might hold off on the former a little more. I don't really have an exact time I build them... kinda just when it looks right to me. Sorry if that's not really helpful.

[Minute Mirage]

Originally posted by BustaMike

It depends a lot on the terrain. If I have good squares (i.e. rainy, rolling) I might hold off on the former a little more. I don't really have an exact time I build them... kinda just when it looks right to me. Sorry if that's not really helpful.

Not at all, I understand it's good to be flexible rather than follow a rigid pattern in every game.

[Curiosity]

MM,

Nope, just a normal supply crawler with trance. The upgrade gives 20 minerals and costs 50 ec, which is a fairly good deal; about the same as rush-buying crawlers, but it's easier to handle. At this stage I probably haven't prototyped synthmetal, and the balance it gives between cash and minerals is just about right for my early economy. I only start using armour for upgrades when I get rover supplies.

I do normally run FM/wealth; that's why the HGP is pretty important. I've never known crawler upgrading to be banned in a game. If it was, then I owe some people an apology.

[Minute Mirage]

Originally posted by Curiosity

I do normally run FM/wealth; that's why the HGP is pretty important.

How do you deal with the b-drones under FM before the HGP? Or do you stop at the first bureaucracy limit?

[Curiosity]

MM,

For the UoP (and I guess CyC, though I don't like them much), I have the tech for crawlers long before I hit the first limit, so the HGP can be built while I'm crossing that threshhold. If I time it right then I've probably just planted a couple of bases over the b-limit a few turns before the HGP is built.
(In MP I'd go for it sooner than that, mind you, unless I'm playing vs the Hive perhaps. Also I have the back up of aiming for the VW, and the secondary back-up of going to Demo, raising the b-limit, since Zak gets Ethical Calculus about now.)

For Morgan, IA and the b-limit come at about the same time. However, the extra cash helps speed things up, and there's still, at worst, only a minor hiccup in expansion. Loosing out on the HGP is pretty disasterous, though.

For the other factions I normally play in FM - Drones, PKs - there are happiness bonuses, so it's not an issue.

[Minute Mirage]

Originally posted by Curiosity
MM,

For the UoP (and I guess CyC, though I don't like them much), I have the tech for crawlers long before I hit the first limit, so the HGP can be built while I'm crossing that threshhold. If I time it right then I've probably just planted a couple of bases over the b-limit a few turns before the HGP is built.
(In MP I'd go for it sooner than that, mind you, unless I'm playing vs the Hive perhaps. Also I have the back up of aiming for the VW, and the secondary back-up of going to Demo, raising the b-limit, since Zak gets Ethical Calculus about now.)

What map size are you using? Also, how often do you manage to get the HGP in MP?

[Curiosity]

MM,

I play huge and standard, and it works out about the same on both - the difference in the b-limit is roughly balanced by the faster tech It's a little better on huge, though. Doesn't work well on tiny maps.

How often would I get HGP in MP - it really depends.

Firstly on your opponent(s), their strategy and faction. Playing vs the Hive or Believers I don't normally expect them to take it away from me. OTOH, Zak vs Morgan is a tight race.
Secondly on plain old luck with AAs and start position. You can't do anything about this, you just have to have a backup plan if/when someone builds it one turn before you. (Which is why I don't really play Morgan in MP.)

But, FWIW: In my current 5 games I would expect to get it in 2-3 of them (I already have it in one, and have a shot at it in all the games) and in 2 of those I'm not going for a FM strategy, due to my faction. Only one game is with Zak, and I'd expect to build it most reliably with him.

In my old games I'm not sure; I've been away for 3 years, and I don't remember much from them now.

[Minute Mirage]

I've been experimenting between using Planned/Wealth and FM/Wealth while building the SPs. Planned gives me a 3 minerals discount per crawler, makes my bases grow faster to size 2 and actually allows me to use that second sitizen. However, it gives me less cash than FM and screws my research rate.

Now, what is the best way to use the extra cash FM gives? I know many people recommend upgrading crawlers and if I've understood correctly there are two ways of doing this:

1) Crawler with trance

Mineral rows: 5
Cost of upgrade: 50
Cost of one mineral row when upgrading: 25

2) Crawler with synthmetal armour and trance

Mineral rows: 8
Cost of upgrade: 90
Cost of one mineral row when upgrading: 15

The second kind of upgrade gives you the best bang for buck, but you need to have synthmetal prototyped. In the games I've played, I haven't prototyped anything before starting to build the SPs, so the first upgrade is the only possibility.

However, the problem I have with upgrading is that the money is only useful when I have enough crawlers to actually build the project. Until this point I haven't been able to use the money for anything while I've saved enough for the upgrades and waited for the crawlers to finish. So what I've been doing instead of upgrading is using all my money rush-building crawlers. The cost of rushing is not much more (sometimes less) than upgrading in case 1), and the benefit is that the crawlers can earn back a part of that cost by harvesting minerals.

So my questions are:

1.

Am I right in rush-building the crawlers instead of upgrading them, if I haven't prototyped synthmetal?

2.

Would it be better to take the time to prototype synthmetal, in order to be able to upgrade the crawlers into a more expensive variant?

3. Are there better uses for the cash to get SPs built quicker? Are there any other ways to upgrade the crawlers?

[CEO Aaron]

1. Never rush build units unless a) You have to b) they're formers or colony pods. Units are more expensive to rush than facilities, and only formers and pods have a high enough payoff to warrant rushing them.

2. I think so. I usually play Morgan, and they begin the game with synthmetal prototyped, but I still think it's worth taking a productive base offline for an extra turn or two to more efficiently use your cash. In the end, the more bases you have, the more worth it it will be.

3. If your goal is to turn ECs into SPs, crawler upgrades are the best deal BY FAR, and so long as the SP you're building gives solid dividends toward generating more turn advantage, there's not many better deals out there, in terms of investments of your production turns.

[Minute Mirage]

Originally posted by CEO Aaron
1. Never rush build units unless a) You have to b) they're formers or colony pods. Units are more expensive to rush than facilities, and only formers and pods have a high enough payoff to warrant rushing them.

Let's consider the following the scenario:

I'm building a crawler, 20/30 minerals, 2 mins/turn.
The cost to rush build the 8 mins required to build the crawler in 1 turn is 20 ECs. If I rush the crawler instead of waiting it to finish, I get it 4 turns earlier. If I have a forest ready, I can crawl 8 mins during the four turns. By the time the crawler would have finished, I have gotten 16 minerals for another project (e.g. another crawler).

Did I miss something here? Is this a bad deal?

Originally posted by CEO Aaron
2. I think so. I usually play Morgan, and they begin the game with synthmetal prototyped, but I still think it's worth taking a productive base offline for an extra turn or two to more efficiently use your cash. In the end, the more bases you have, the more worth it it will be.

I'm beginning to think I need to try this, at least. I wonder if actually using a crawler to prototype synthmetal was wise. Let's see:

If I have four crawlers, I could upgrade them into trance with 200 ECs and be able to build a 20-row project.

I could also use one of the crawlers to prototype synthmetal, and in the following turn upgrade two of the three crawlers to trance synth with 180 ECs. The three crawlers would give me a 20-row project minus one row, which shouldn't be too hard to get. This way I've saved 20 ECs, prototyped synthmetal and gotten a synthmetal garrison unit. Doesn't sound too bad.

[Curiosity]

1. Sometimes, sometimes not.

In particular, the cost of upgrading is controlled by mineral rows, rather than mineral cost; so, if you have a high mineral rating then it may be better to rush the crawlers, until you get to the better upgrade opportunities on the rover chassis.

Though, I often end up both rushing the crawlers and upgrading them, at least on huge maps. Plus, upgrading has the advantage of being plain easier to manage.


2. Interesting point about the trance/synth crawler upgrade being much cheaper... there are also incidental advantages to prototyping synth.
If it gives 8 rows then 2 trance/synth + 1 normal crawler is pretty efficient for a 200 mineral project. You get 20 minerals and 20 EC over trance-only, which almost pays for the synthmetal prototype, and it will help you in future projects. Cool, I'll start experimenting with this.

[CEO Aaron]

MM: Your example, while illustrative of Vel's concept of comparitive turn advantage is spurious in two respects: #1. You don't have enough EC's to rush everything everywhere. #2. You probably have other bases producing other things that will produce better dividends from the cash you've got to spend.

Most SPs are incredibly efficient generators of turn-advantage, much more than a couple of extra minerals from idle crawlers. Don't get me wrong, you'll want to roll crawlers to get minerals in order to ramp up your production, they're a very good deal, but each SP can only be built ONCE, and if you miss out, the only way to regain the benefit is a protracted war, since the faction you deprive of it will be VERY determined to get it back. Besides, most SPs will be built in core bases, making them very hard to approach.

Once I get home, I'll post an example pointing out the comparative value of rushing your crawlers to rushing your project, and you'll see what I mean. Until then....