Early game secret projects - how and when to build them?

[Minute Mirage]

How do people here go about snagging those vital early game SPs? Do you go for only one at a time or start building many at the same time? Do you wait for crawlers? How many bases do you assign for building those SPs? Do you crawler-rush the projects? Do you neglect building colony pods so that you'd get the SPs underway sooner? Do your strategies differ for SP and MP?

My current method with the University is building one colony pod and two formers in my first two bases and then rushing RCs and RTs as soon as possible. After that, I start building enough crawlers so that I start getting ecodamage (16-20 minerals). It's only at this point that I start building my first project, which is usually the VW. By this point the AI is usually well underway with their projects. I do usually manage to get the VW, but I'd also like to have the HGP and the WP, but the AI often gets one or both of them.

I use all my early AAs for the projects, but I hesitate to sacrifice the crawlers that bring those much needed early minerals, unless I see that the AI will complete its project in one turn. Would it be better, especially in MP, to sacrifice those crawlers in order to get the projects completed ASAP, even if it meant rebuilding the crawlers from scratch afterwards?

[Chaos Theory]

With most factions, I wait for crawlers before even starting any projects, and even then I don't have any bases overtly work on projects. I select a few bases to make and gather crawlers. Once I have enough together, I upgrade them if it's profitable and build a project in one turn.

I neglect building some colony pods, but I often don't even start working on the crawlers until I've hit or passed my bureaucracy limit, at which point the pods are producing diminishing returns.

With most factions, I pump out a former first, then a colony pod, then maybe another former, and another colony pod from earlier bases, to jump to the bureaucracy limit quickly, then I rush rec tanks and maybe rec commons and start building crawlers. Once a base has a crawler on a forest, it's a candidate for helping a project. Any artifacts are not cashed for techs but held for the first project.

I would say that if you wait until your bases are causing ecodamage, you've waited much too long to start a project, and in MP you would usually be beaten to the first several. On the other hand you could grab a few of the second tier of more expensive projects, if your tech rate is good.

It would be informative if you would post about when (by mission year) you finish your first project. In multiplayer TCP/IP accelerated conditions, I or someone else finishes the first project between 2125 and 2140, depending on artifacts.

[Minute Mirage]

Originally posted by Chaos Theory
With most factions, I wait for crawlers before even starting any projects, and even then I don't have any bases overtly work on projects. I select a few bases to make and gather crawlers. Once I have enough together, I upgrade them if it's profitable and build a project in one turn.

I neglect building some colony pods, but I often don't even start working on the crawlers until I've hit or passed my bureaucracy limit, at which point the pods are producing diminishing returns.

With most factions, I pump out a former first, then a colony pod, then maybe another former, and another colony pod from earlier bases, to jump to the bureaucracy limit quickly, then I rush rec tanks and maybe rec commons and start building crawlers. Once a base has a crawler on a forest, it's a candidate for helping a project. Any artifacts are not cashed for techs but held for the first project.

I would say that if you wait until your bases are causing ecodamage, you've waited much too long to start a project, and in MP you would usually be beaten to the first several. On the other hand you could grab a few of the second tier of more expensive projects, if your tech rate is good.

It would be informative if you would post about when (by mission year) you finish your first project. In multiplayer TCP/IP accelerated conditions, I or someone else finishes the first project between 2125 and 2140, depending on artifacts.

I have to say this method sounds a lot better than the one I've been using. I've been hard pressed to complete my first project in 1950 (single player, normal map), even with artifacts. I have to try this and see how it works out.

[BustaMike]

I've been hard pressed to complete my first project in 1950

No kidding, considering the game starts at 2100

I've had SP's built several times as early as 2110-15 with a little luck. Usually though, it's closer to the time Chaos Theory said, ~2135 or so.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Minute Mirage


I have to say this method sounds a lot better than the one I've been using. I've been hard pressed to complete my first project in 1950 (single player, normal map), even with artifacts. I have to try this and see how it works out.

I usually like to have at least one finished and a second starting by 650 BC, ... OOPS, wrong game

Seriously, in Civ2 i usually wait till im at least close to caravans before starting a wonder. In SMAC crawlers come later than Civ2 camels, and yet good SP's still come up earlier, so it really seems you need to start on the SP's before you have crawlers/

[CEO Aaron]

The reason you see SPs arrive earlier than in Civ2 is the presence of Alien Artifacts.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by lord of the mark

Seriously, in Civ2 i usually wait till im at least close to caravans before starting a wonder. In SMAC crawlers come later than Civ2 camels, and yet good SP's still come up earlier, so it really seems you need to start on the SP's before you have crawlers/

This really depends on the game. With directed research and playing a builder faction I very rarely start an SP before crawlers.

[igtenos]

Considering that I rarely use Crawlers, I typically make a rush for HGP, WP, and Command Nexus as soon as I can get a base that has +3 Minerals and positive Nutrients (+1 or 2 is good enough early on -- I expect that some terraforming will help raise both stats by the time the project nears completion). Usually, this is after the base pumps out a Former, a Colony Pod or two, and a recreation commons. The rec. commons is important seeing how most HGP-less factions get their first drone around 4 or 5 population. *Nothing* sucks like losing a key project to a well timed drone riot.... Considering how important the first three projects are, getting them first can mean the difference between a hard & easy game.

[The Vagabond]

Hell, if I had to wait until Crawlers, I would surely miss the early SPs all together. My style is close to what igtenos described. And it doesn't really much depend on the faction I play. For the first few bases (usually two or three) I build in each a Former, one Colony Pod, rush-build (when possible, and I never hesitate to spend money on this) RT and RC. Building RT pays off on the time span needed to complete one SP. Hence RT is always worth building before starting a SP. Thus, I usually have two or three bases dedicated to SPs as soon as I 've built the mentioned items and as soon as I have at least one more base to dedicate to further expansion or building military units. In the case of a base very rich in minerals but very poor in food, I skip Colony Pod and RC (the base won't grow above the size 2 anyway), and such a base permits to start SPs really early on. I often start the same SP in several bases with the hope to catch up on research and switch the production later. This "strategy" works pretty well for me, and of the first four SPs (HGP, WP, ME, VW) I usually miss one at most, and pretty often grab them all.

[Chaos Theory]

igtenos said:
"...most HGP-less factions get their first drone around 4 or 5 population"

What difficulty level are you playing on? Everything I said is for transcend level, where most HGP-less factions get their first drone at 2 population.

And an open question: just how much is each secret project worth? That is, how much should you slow your production to snag a project? This differs by faction, of course, depending on how much bureaucracy hurts.

If I assign anything to a project before crawlers help spread
the cost, I assign just one base, because all the rest are making colony pods, formers, rec tanks, or possibly even military units if I have a neighbor.

Also, Industrial Automation is usually the fifth or sixth tech I research. I beeline for it, except I pick Centauri Ecology as soon as possible (with most factions).

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by CEO Aaron
The reason you see SPs arrive earlier than in Civ2 is the presence of Alien Artifacts.

so you used the artifacts for SP'S and not for techs - thats what ive mainly been using them for so far - but that may he hurting me - it can slow a tech beeline, IIUC, and it forces me to build network nodes earlier than i might otherwise.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Sikander


This really depends on the game. With directed research and playing a builder faction I very rarely start an SP before crawlers.

I probably need to refine my tech beelining.

[Minute Mirage]

Originally posted by BustaMike


No kidding, considering the game starts at 2100

No wonder it's been so difficult!


Anyway, how about some faction specific pondering:

If I'm playing the University in a multiplayer game, should I first go for the Virtual World despite its higher cost, or would I be better off getting the HGP? I assume it's quite improbable to get both of them in MP. And how important is the Weather Paradigm for the University compared to those two projects?

[johndmuller]

The VW is such a nice fit with the University, it would have to be pretty high on the priority list, IMhO, higher than the HGP, although the HGP comes earlier in the tech tree and is cheaper.

Disbanding scouts or other cheap units to accelerate SP's is a feasible approach for the pre-IndAuto period. A neighboring base with good min production can produce a scout each turn and ship it off to the SP building base and significantly contribute to the SP effort; being tilted toward min production, it'll have little growth and thus won't be likely to grow into drone riot territory quickly, if at all. Ideally, that base would also have good energy production and whatever facilities were available so that it was also contributing to the overall Econ and Labs picture, but that's probably asking a lot.

[CEO Aaron]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
so you used the artifacts for SP'S and not for techs - thats what ive mainly been using them for so far - but that may he hurting me - it can slow a tech beeline, IIUC, and it forces me to build network nodes earlier than i might otherwise.

Yes, I use AA's for Secret Project construction almost exclusively, at least until I've gotten to Environmental Economics. The earlier you use the AA, for whatver use, the earlier you start to accrue whatever advantages they convey, and I don't want to divert from my buildup to construct Network Nodes.

Originally posted by
And an open question: just how much is each secret project worth? That is, how much should you slow your production to snag a project? This differs by faction, of course, depending on how much bureaucracy hurts.

In the long run, every early SP is worth far more than the minerals they cost to build. When contemplating when to build an SP, my concern is how I can contrive to capture as many of them as possible, with a particular eye toward getting the ones I consider especially critical: WP/HGP/VW. Typically I'll pause sometime between the first and second bureaucracy limits, and start crash-building projects.

My ratings for early Projects:

1: Weather Paradigm: Definitely the premier builder SP, this allows you to subvert nutrient production limits, as well as accelerate terraforming in general. This is invariably the SP I'll build first, using AA's to do so, if possible.

2: Human Genome Project: Another very solid contender, early on, this allows you to expand to the second bureaucracy limit without concerning yourself with building Rec Commons, and later on, it allows much easier access to the coveted Golden Age, for good improvements in growth, economy and efficiency.

3: Virtual World: Utterly critical for University, but highly useful for everyone else, since Hologram Theatres are time-consuming to build and have a prohibitive upkeep at 3 ECs each.

4: Command Nexxus: While early on it's possible to make do with fewer Command Centers, but as the game progresses, you'll eventually want to build them everywhere as your military production begins to ramp up for the slugfest endgame. In addition, as you discover more reactor types, the upkeep costs for Command Centers increases, making the Command Nexxus a better deal as time goes by.

5: Planetary Energy Grid: For Morgan, or anyone who plans to spend a large portion of the game in Free Market, this is a very useful SP, but since most momentum factions will consider this a lower priority, it's safe to leave this til more coveted projects have been captured. It's worth noting however that if you're using crawler upgrades, the additional income from PEG can enable you to grab more projects faster than if you'd built it later, so in some circumstances, consider this a higher priority.

6: Empath Guild: Odds are the tech and economic benefits of this project will not be immediately apparent, however holding the EG offers considerable strategic benefit. It offers easier access to Planetary Governorship, and if you're playing Lal, it makes the Governorship, and in all probability the game, a virtual lock. All in all, a solid project, but certainly more useful for certain strategies.

7: Merchant Exchange: The merits of this SP don't really reveal themselves until the late game. Early on, the additional energy income won't really significantly improve your development. If, in the mid-late game, you wind up building an energy-park and crawling energy back to the base in which this SP has been built, its benefits can become quite pronounced. If that base also has some of the tech-magifying SPs (Theory of Everything, Network Backbone, etc...) those benefits will be commensurately magnified.

8: Planetary Transit System: I'm not a big fan of this SP, since by the time it is usually built, if your development is healthy, you're not going to make too many more bases. If you're pursuing an ICS strategy, or if your SE restrictions keep you from Pop-booming easily, PTS can offer some useful benefits.

9: Neural Amplifier: This project can be an utter klinker for some factions, but if you're a free marketeer, it can offer some convenient benefits, allowing your formers and crawlers some modicum of protection against roving native life, without inflating their cost by adding trance capability. Also, if your combat strategy makes extensive use of native life, you'll want to coopt this SP simply to prevent your victims, I mean rivals, can't have it.

The subsequent SPs, in my opinion, are too deep in the tech tree to be considered early game, and unless your tech rate is profoundly good, there will be a lull in SP building while you divert your production toward either military efforts or the leap to tree farms and fusion power.

PS: Apologies for the long post.