Early game secret projects - how and when to build them?

[HeymlicH]

I play with slow tech and complete the early wonders before crawlers are available. I try to get 3 of them. In most cases I get at least 2.

[Minute Mirage]

I finally tried building the Planetary Transit System earlier than what I've usually done, and I must say it is a great project. Combined with the Monsoon Jungle that I landed next to it is simply awesome! It's so easy to thin expand when you don't have to worry about getting 2 nut squares.

All in all, I've had the best start of all my games so far and by 1959 I have built all the very early SPs (VW, PTS, HGP, WP, ME) and have 20 bases with 59 population. I haven't even needed any recreation commons' yet despite the fact that I've passed the third bureaucracy limit (large map) and am running FM. The drone-reducing aspect of PTS is very nice too.

[HeymlicH]

Starting with the monsoon jungle nearby is always a great start, no matter if you have the planetary transport system or not.

[Corellion]

Originally posted by Minute Mirage
...by 1959 I have built all the very early SPs (VW, PTS, HGP, WP, ME)

[Snowflake]

That's even before I was born.

[HeymlicH]

I think there are three early projects that are quite important. Building the PTS or other stuff is possible, but it is a waste of ressources that could be better put into expansion/infrastructure/military.

[Chaos Theory]

If your bases average size 2 and you ICS, the PTS pays for itself really quickly. It gives you an extra *productive* citizen everywhere that you can scratch together 6 food, and as you continue to sprawl, every base will start twice as productive.

[Minute Mirage]

Originally posted by HongHu
That's even before I was born.

That's the third or fourth time I make the same mistake in this thread!

Originally posted by HeymlicH
Building the PTS or other stuff is possible, but it is a waste of ressources that could be better put into expansion/infrastructure/military.

The PTS is expansion -- your population can easily double when you build it. Not to mention that any future expansion will be quicker because all new bases will be immediately productive.

[Snowflake]

The problem is you need to have a large enough continent. Or do you expand into the sea when you don't have land?

[HeymlicH]

colony pods pay really fast, too

And if you have too many colonies early, the rioting becomes a problem.

Later in the game, a few large bases are better than lots of small ones. With the settings I usually use I found something between 8 and 12 main bases to be the best choice. I don't need the PTS to expand to this number of bases.

My main problem are usually the drones (ok, I play Zak ), not the growth. So I build happyness wonders first, and when they are completed I don't need the PTS any more.

[Jac de Molay]

Originally posted by HongHu
The problem is you need to have a large enough continent. Or do you expand into the sea when you don't have land?

Definitely, sea expansion. The PTS with sea colony pods has great synergy IMO. Typically, in the absence of PTS, I wouldn't even bother to build sea bases because pods and former are too mineral expensive, IMO.

But with the PTS, it's easier to get more self-sufficient bases which have minerals besides the usual kelp/energy.

[Minute Mirage]

Originally posted by HeymlicH
colony pods pay really fast, too

And if you have too many colonies early, the rioting becomes a problem.

That's a point against building colony pods, not against the PTS. The PTS actually reduces rioting, at least early on.

Originally posted by HeymlicH
Later in the game, a few large bases are better than lots of small ones. With the settings I usually use I found something between 8 and 12 main bases to be the best choice. I don't need the PTS to expand to this number of bases.

The PTS isn't just about expansion, it's about getting the bases you found to be productive a lot quicker. Not to mention that all your existing bases get more productive when you build it. Of course, if you build the PTS by the time you have founded all your bases and they are all size three, then I grant you that it isn't of much use.

Originally posted by HeymlicH
My main problem are usually the drones (ok, I play Zak ), not the growth. So I build happyness wonders first, and when they are completed I don't need the PTS any more.

I also play the University and I agree that the VW or the HGP is my first priority. But I find (in single player) that I still can build the PTS after that and find it very useful indeed. Just as an aside, when do you actually finish the first SP(s)?

[Minute Mirage]

My apologies for topping another older thread, but I feel I need to add one point concerning the PTS, now that I'm a bit more experienced in using it.


If you cash in your crawlers for any other SP, you are sacrificing a part of your much needed early industrial strength to get the benefits of the SP. While this is almost always a good deal, the PTS does better here. When you cash in the crawlers, your industrial capacity is very likely to actually increase, thanks to the new workers. This would make the PTS worth building even without its other benefit -- each new base starts at size three.

And while this has been mentioned before in this thread and elsewhere too, I think it bears repeating: The PTS makes all your bases ready for a golden age, which can be very powerful with the HGP. There's nothing like a GA pop boom in Democracy/FM/Wealth to get your newly founded bases going.

[ErikM]

Imho PTS value varies greatly depending on the game particulars.

Zak, Morgan, CC, and Roze can get to IA very quickly - definitely by 30s - at which stage early expansion is not finished, most bases are at size 1-2 and building PTS generates a very quick increase in industrial capacity allowing you to build other SPs more quickly. Definitely a priority project in such a case.

Slower research factions may not be able to get to IA that fast and for some of them it makes more sense to beeline to other techs (ie Dee benefits immensely from Doc:Flex and catching IoDs). Then IA may come as late as 40s-50s in which case expansion is almost finished and many bases are at size 3+ already. In latter case, PTS really is not all that valuable.

In short, PTS value tremendously declines with time.

Another project whose value imho is vastly overrated is the Weather Paradigm. It has several effects:

(i) formers work 50% faster - no, they do not Consider a typical terraforming task in early game - planting a forest.
Say, flat and arid square.
Former deploys - 1 turn with or without WP.
Former builds road - 1 turn with or without WP.
Former plants forest - 4 turns without WP; 3 turns with WP.
Overall terraforming time is 6 turns without WP vs 5 turns with WP. Nothing to write home about.

Same task for a rolling square is 7 turns without WP vs 6 turns with WP, which is even worse for WP.

(ii) WP allows you to build advanced terraforming projects, which is excellent, but at this stage at the game your formers time is probably better invested towards building forests anyway. At any rate, with a fast research faction you probably cannot get WP much earlier than 30s and you'll probably get EnvEcon in 50s so the window of opportunity is rather small.

(iii) Later on, you can drill a borehole in 16 turns with WP vs 24 turns without, which is quite substantial but at a cost of 200mins spent towards WP you can build extra 7 clean formers which would net you roughy the same effect.

Of course, with blind research the value of WP increases quite substantially. Overall, good project - all early projects are great really - but not in the same league as HGP/VW (for me at least).

Just my $0.02.

[Minute Mirage]

Originally posted by ErikM

Slower research factions may not be able to get to IA that fast and for some of them it makes more sense to beeline to other techs (ie Dee benefits immensely from Doc:Flex and catching IoDs). Then IA may come as late as 40s-50s in which case expansion is almost finished and many bases are at size 3+ already. In latter case, PTS really is not all that valuable.

I wouln't call the 40s exactly late, and depending on the map you could be expanding quite late. But you do make a good point that some factions might get to IA too late to make PTS as useful as it is for some others. Although in MP you can get to IA earlier, if you trade techs.

Originally posted by ErikM

Another project whose value imho is vastly overrated is the Weather Paradigm. It has several effects:

(i) formers work 50% faster - no, they do not Consider a typical terraforming task in early game - planting a forest.
Say, flat and arid square.
Former deploys - 1 turn with or without WP.
Former builds road - 1 turn with or without WP.
Former plants forest - 4 turns without WP; 3 turns with WP.
Overall terraforming time is 6 turns without WP vs 5 turns with WP. Nothing to write home about.

Same task for a rolling square is 7 turns without WP vs 6 turns with WP, which is even worse for WP.

That's very true of course, but as soon as you start building condensor/farms, you see some substantial benefit. You need 11 former turns for a condensor/farm with the WP and 16 without. I find myself building quite a few of these as soon as I get the WP.

Originally posted by ErikM

(ii) WP allows you to build advanced terraforming projects, which is excellent, but at this stage at the game your formers time is probably better invested towards building forests anyway. At any rate, with a fast research faction you probably cannot get WP much earlier than 30s and you'll probably get EnvEcon in 50s so the window of opportunity is rather small.

I usually only forest in the very early game and then start with the condensor/farms. A very nice benefit is that you don't have to have Gene Splicing to get the 4 nuts from them. While it's true that the fast research factions can lift the restrictions quite soon, things are different for others. Not to mention that even a fast research factions might not necessarily want to beeline for Environmental Economics, but head for something like D:AP and MMI instead.

Originally posted by ErikM
(iii) Later on, you can drill a borehole in 16 turns with WP vs 24 turns without, which is quite substantial but at a cost of 200mins spent towards WP you can build extra 7 clean formers which would net you roughy the same effect.

For terraform paradigms that need a large amount of former turns (condensor/farms + boreholes, energy parks) I'd say that the WP is worth a lot more than the minerals spent on it.

Originally posted by ErikM
Overall, good project - all early projects are great really -but not in the same league as HGP/VW (for me at least).

Finally, I have to say I agree with this sentiment, at least when playing with the University, which is what I usually do. Getting either of these in the early game makes running FM a lot easier, and the HGP has the added bonus of making GAs a lot easier. Of course, the free holo theaters in every base is a massive benefit.