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The Council of War

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  • The Council of War

    The Council of War


    To not litter the University Invasion thread with discussions on what to do after, I thought I'd start this think tank, with the most highly regarded members of the Junta, to ponder about our post-University military actions.

    There are several courses we can follow. Unfortunately each of them has several disadvantages. So I was hoping we could discuss here what to do, and how to solve the problems surrounding our choice.


    A first option, heavily supported by Googlie, is to go after Lal. This would give us vast tracks of fertile real estate.

    These following problems I can see:

    First question is, is invading Lal really beneficial for us? He’s currently pacted with us, which means we get some commerce, and he should also be willing to trade technology to us. More concrete, he’ll research Synthetic Fossil Fuels MY 2159 IIRC.

    And while conquering Lal’s bases should be a breeze, the question is whether we can keep them. While Zak’s bases are placed relatively concentrated and close to our homelands, Lal’s bases are spread out over a very large territory, and far away from us. In a possible future conflict against the Gaians or Angels, they would be very hard to all defend. And it would be even harder to protect them all sufficiently against probe infiltration. In short, I fear for an imperial overstretch.


    A second option, heavily supported by Modo, is to go after Morgan as soon as possible. This would weaken our strongest rival for victory, making us undisputed top doggie.

    Here the big problem seems to me a lack of troops. We have as deployable invasion force one cruiser transport, four rovers, one impact infantry, one synthmetal skirmisher and one elite probe team. While this is sufficient to roll over the Arcadian factions, I doubt it is sufficient to take on a human player.

    In a few years we could of course start producing some extra cruiser transports and missile marines, but that means fewer investments in economic expansion.

    As suggested before, we could of course limit our objectives to not conquering Morgania but merely obliterating all their coastal bases. While our current military is IMO also insufficient to have a large effect before Morgan builds sufficient defences, it is a good start for a harassing guerilla force.

    But we can ask ourselves; do we want to obliterate bases? This will permanently damage our reputation, and give us trade sanctions forever, after a few obliterations. Currently we already get 19 energy out of commerce (6 from Morgan), a figure that will no doubt increase as time progresses. So we’d forfeit a good percentage of our income.


    A third option is to rid the world of Yang, or at least take some of his bases nearest to us, for example those on our side of the Styx Straits.

    While the real estate here is even better than Lals, the best of the Chiron in fact, the Hive is much heavier defended. Progress here would be very slow, and a war would drag on very long. Furthermore we can ask ourselves if we should disturb Yang, who is doing very good work for us: at vendetta with Gaia, and who knows soon Morgan too.


    A fourth option for the record would be the Gaians or Angels. They would most likely be easier to conquer than Morgan, but they’re also located further away, so there’s again the danger of an imperial overstretch.


    A fifth option is not to attack any faction, but use our already existing military in Arcadia to do some worm farming in those large fungal banks east of Arcadia University. This should also give us some decent cash, and some worms after we’ve founded a Manifold base.


    So as you can see, whatever route we take, there are some problems on the road that we’d better discuss and try to solve before starting our next big adventure.
    Contraria sunt Complementa. -- Niels Bohr
    Mods: SMAniaC (SMAC) & Planetfall (Civ4)

  • #2
    A good summary of the military options

    Maybe it's also time to step back and look at the other victory options, as alternatives to military conquest.

    After the current Uni conquest is complete, and our 2 new bases founded, by 2157 we'll have a population of 44, just shy of Morgan's 46 ( one base will have produced a new Colony Pod by then and will have shrunk to size 2, and the new colony won't yet be foiunded)

    We'll have 5 Network Nodes in operation, and a size 7 base (MonStat, renamed Fort Superiority) with 2 mineral/energy boreholes being worked.

    We'll prolly have - or at least be looking forward to - the CDF, and it's feasible that we could concentrate on infrastructure and contemplate a Transcendencs win.

    If we are going to try for a Diplo win, then conquering, and getting a submissive, Lal, then gifting back all his bases is a must. As, prolly, will subjugating Yang. And if we haver a hope in hell of this, then we must deny Morgan the Cloning Vats. We, Zak, or Lal (if subjugated) must get this SP

    I don't think that Economic Victory is a realistic option for us

    So the real post-Uni choice seems to be whether we continue with the roll south to capture PK bases and force a Lal subjugation, then gift those bases back to him, or whether to consolidate what we've got and focus on our pop-boom strategy in both our Homeland and North Arcadia while we wait for Fusion Power and Shard needlejets, then embark on phase II of a Military victory strategy

    Comment


    • #3
      Good name for the thread.


      Sixth option.

      Mid term: After Zak is done, pact with Yang ASAP. Then, go after Morgan together with the Hive. They could survive a single attack, but not an alliance. I'd consider paying Yang a lot for this.

      Long term: After Morgan is dead, or badly crippled, concentrate on building. This could be dangerous, as Yang is growing at an enormous rate. We might be forced to take him down, probably with a global alliance against the Hive.

      I don't think we stand a chance to win, if Morgan isn't crippled. None at all.

      I agree that taking bases from Lal would make us very voulnerable, because of the sheer size of Sparta.
      Seriously. Kung freaking fu.

      Comment


      • #4
        Ok I feel like ranting

        This is an extremely interesting thread, and what we decide here will likely prove decisive for the outcome of the game. I really think we have so much power in our hands. Morgan is all set to bloat, and the Angels/Gaians I think are too weak to really do anything, but Sparta, we have lots of options, and currently at a very important crossroads.

        I will say right away that I don't like the idea of going Builder, even if the purpose is to research better weaponry. I just don't think we have a chance to out-build the Morgans. They have strong Economy bonuses, they've been building infrastructure since day 1 and worst of all they're run by people who - as I understand it - are experts at doing exactly what they're currently doing with the Morgans. They also have the HGP, the PTS and the PEG.

        Sparta has Morale bonuses, we have the CN, the MTC and hopefully soon the CDF. And we also have a large standing army currently wreaking havoc in Arcadia, and we even have a small navy, about to be reinforced.

        In my opinion, the best way to win is to do a lot of what we are good at, and only do what we have to in the areas we are not as good at.

        I don't think we need to bash Lal yet. He is a good ally, both for tech and energy trading. And Morgan is too strong to take on right away, we could dent him, but it wouldn't do us much good. So what do I suggest? I call for mobilization. Build armies in both Arcadia and Sparta, and when we have enough to fill four or five cruiser transports. Send them to Morgan in a pincer move from both east and west and force them to surrender. I don't think we have too much time to wait.

        As for Cloning Vats, I agree, let's keep those from Morgan. We should talk to the Gaians/Angels about it.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Snoddasmannen
          I just don't think we have a chance to out-build the Morgans. They have strong Economy bonuses, they've been building infrastructure since day 1
          Ah, but that's just the point. They haven't been building infrastructure (unless you count the PEG SP with its energy banks as infrastructure). We actually have more (offsetting our Command Centers and Naval Yards against their Energy Banks)

          Plus, they've lost a total of 9 units compared to our 1
          Attached Files

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Googlie

            Ah, but that's just the point. They haven't been building infrastructure (unless you count the PEG SP with its energy banks as infrastructure). We actually have more (offsetting our Command Centers and Naval Yards against their Energy Banks)
            Oh, I didn't know that - thanks for pointing out

            But still, how much use to us are those Command Centers and Naval Yards if we are going for Transcendance? Their Energy Banks effectively increase their profits by 50%, giving them a whopping 132 ec:s per turn!

            From my inexperienced point of view, it looks like they will easily out-build us. Can we really challenge them?

            Comment


            • #7
              Googlie, infrastructure is only a part of the deal. If we can do research in 10 turns (which we won't for quite some time, even with maximum effort), they are already at 5 turns. Soon they will overcome us, and get ahead.

              And free Energy Banks can buy them anything. They'll out-rush us, if we try to go into infrastructure.
              Seriously. Kung freaking fu.

              Comment


              • #8
                Honoured members of the Junta, this discussion needs to be continued What is our plan to win this game?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Well, I think we're reaching a sort of concensus that we leave Zak with his 2 tiny bases after we have captured Otk-Dis, bullied him into ceding control of Monitoring Station, and - after we get a probe team ready to garrison it - buy Climatic Research from him.

                  Our pact with Lal is providing valuable energy credits, so we leave him alone for the time being.

                  Yang is doing a good job of tying up the Gaians, so we also leave him alone until we get D:AP, Fusion, and better weapons.

                  The Angels aren't posing a threat to us (but they may become so once they get their NN's and Creches built)

                  Which leaves us with Morgan.

                  Should we strike before they get their defensive infrastructure in place (ie, clean plasma or silksteel armored units) or wait until we get better weapons and drives?

                  And, if soon, how big a force would we need? And what would be the immediate objectives?

                  I think we should attack on a pincer, from both his east and west coast, with specific short term objectives in mind. Impact Rovers, backed by Crypteia to defend agains probe counetr attacks

                  Here's my view of what our immediate targets should be:

                  - the 3 key Morgan bases -






                  The attack from East Arcadia, sourced out of Climatic Research, would be a couple of cruiser transports with 4 Elite Impact rovers in one and 4 Crypteia in the other:

                  - The Arcadian Task Force -






                  With a simultaneous attack on his eastern seaboard (from our Homeland, going west) launched from a new westcoast naval base , and also comprising a couple of cruiser transports filled with Impact Rovers and Crypteia

                  - The Homeland Task Force -






                  Of course, if by the time we're ready, we have missile weapons (or chaos), then we'd have our rovers upgraded to them. And if we have the luxury of time, a couple of extra transports with trance plasma defenders wouldn't be amiss either. But right now, with the forces at Morgan's command, this would do the trick.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Snoddasmannen
                    I call for mobilization. Build armies in both Arcadia and Sparta, and when we have enough to fill four or five cruiser transports. Send them to Morgan in a pincer move from both east and west and force them to surrender.
                    In that case I'd suggest to continue build lots of crawlers. As long as we keep plasma armour unprototyped, these are instantly convertable to the military units of our choice, using the method described in the Survivalist's Guide.

                    Btw, if we won't invade Lal for the moment, and wait with invading Morgan until we've built up our military, what will we do with our existing military in Arcadia for the moment (after Zak is made submissive)? Let them hunt for worms for the time being?
                    Contraria sunt Complementa. -- Niels Bohr
                    Mods: SMAniaC (SMAC) & Planetfall (Civ4)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      As long as Morgan doesn't have offensive forces, that plan sounds good.

                      I assume the force in Arcadia would be a part of the army invading Morgan. This would mean, that few additional units are needed. A Rover, the 4 Crypteia, and that's it. And yes, I think the units should go hunting for Worms until the fleet is ready to depart, especially after we have that +1 Planet.

                      Questions:
                      1. How expensive are the Destroyer Transports? Will it take long to prepare them?

                      2. In SMAC you could put two units on a tile, and they would be immune to probes. Is this the case in SMAX? If so, is it allowed to use it?
                      Seriously. Kung freaking fu.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Modo44
                        Questions:
                        1. How expensive are the Destroyer Transports? Will it take long to prepare them?
                        40 minerals (4 rows)

                        2. In SMAC you could put two units on a tile, and they would be immune to probes. Is this the case in SMAX? If so, is it allowed to use it?
                        Yes. Stacking units is a recognized, legal, way of avoiding probe subversion

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          :
                          Originally posted by Snoddasmannen
                          I call for mobilization. Build armies in both Arcadia and Sparta, and when we have enough to fill four or five cruiser transports. Send them to Morgan in a pincer move from both east and west and force them to surrender.
                          LOL - and there I thought I was like Eisenhower planning D-Day. I hadn't realized that Snod had already touted that as a strategic option

                          Of course, with size-3 bases and 2 defenders, we won't need to use the "obliterate base" feature, as the base will be destroyed when out third attacker moves in. That way our reputation will remain intact with Lal and the others

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Wait! We already have a force that can do the razing. The units currently in Arcadia. How much can Morgan do before those lads land? Dare I say: nothing?
                            Seriously. Kung freaking fu.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Googlie
                              Of course, with size-3 bases and 2 defenders, we won't need to use the "obliterate base" feature, as the base will be destroyed when out third attacker moves in.
                              Ah, I fear IIRC that the base is only reduced in size when destroying the last defender. So size 3 bases we attacked and captured would become size 1.
                              Contraria sunt Complementa. -- Niels Bohr
                              Mods: SMAniaC (SMAC) & Planetfall (Civ4)

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