Sparta-Morgan Relations

[Modo44]

That doesn't sound very nice of them. Do you think the Morgans want war, or are they just trying to make us angry? Should we ask them, or can we act?

[Googlie]

We (or at leasdt I) pretty much accepted the situation.
After all, we could have infiltrated at Red Fungus Resort, with no loss of Morgan units. But we elected to kill the prbe defender of a Treaty partner, so recompense was justified, IMHO

As to the linkage of that recompense with a leapfrog - we never did pursue that 'cos we saw a better deal with the Angels to get Int Int (althouigh it had its snafus, it seems to be going well enough now)

But essentially Morgan called our bluff.

We did have a flurry of internal saber-rattling until we realized that it'd take five turns for the University invasion force to backtrack and get to Morganland, and it just seemed in the realpolitik of what our strategy was that it was better to contine with initiating the Zak action and just leave Morgan till a later date.

[Kassiopeia]

I concur, we were already engaged in Arcadia and an operation in Morgania would have been out of the question. In fact, we have to be very careful not to attract an invasion to our soil now, btw. Someone might see this as an opportunity to try it.

[Modo44]

I see. Basically, we can't kick them, excepty by means of Yang (and that is risky, not easy, or not even possible). We have suggested to pay for that Attorney, which seems fair. That is all fine and dandy. Well, it isn't, actually, but I understand we have to accept it.

What I don't like is them assuming they can take money from us without a clear agreement. We didn't offer to just pay them 50 energy credits, and they didn't write a thing about it, they just took some cash without asking. Now I see why we shouldn't make per-turn deals with those people.

My question is about diplomacy, not so much about our actions (as we can do little about it). Can, or should we try to talk to them about how they dealt with this matter? Or do we just go kick Morgan, when we're done with Zak, in which case this won't matter anyway?

[Googlie]

all the more reason to spend whatever cash we get from Morgan on upgrading our scouts and goplites to 1-2t-1's (or after getting a juicy protoype, into 1-3t-1's) - that plus the CDF should render us nigh invincible until chaos noodles

[Googlie]

I see that they (at least, jtsisyoda) like the certainty of a formula:

Posted in the Embassy by jtsisyoda
I agree with the formula principle. The board will need some time to convene on the matter

[Modo44]

Originally posted by Googlie
I see that they (at least, jtsisyoda) like the certainty of a formula:

Of course they do. It gives them technology faster, and cheaper, than they could get it by self-research.


Anyway, I'm gone for tonight. Have a good Christmas everyone.

[Snoddasmannen]

Originally posted by Modo44
Why exactly do you consider it good? We are planning to sell advanced technology, below it's research price, knowing very well that our tech advantage will be hard to keep. Hard to keep against the same faction we are selling to - the Morgans. IMO, they should be very happy with 400 energy credits, not 350, and definately not 300.

Well there are a couple of reasons. First, I don't really consider the value of a tech to be equivalent to the so called research price. There are other ways to get techs, such as probing for them, or trading for it. The most expensive way to get a tech is to research it yourself.

But nonetheless, let's say assume you're right, and that we give them something that is worth 400 ec, and they pay us 300 for it, that sounds like a rip-off right? But I'm not so sure it is. We should do always do a trade if it promotes our chances of winning the game, ie (simplified) if the net result is a plus for us. So let's examine this shall we?

Turn 1
Morgan: 300 ec in cash
Sparta: 400 ec worth of tech
= +100 for Sparta

Turn 2
Morgan: 0 ec cash + 400 ec tech
Sparta: 300 ec cash + 400 ec tech
= + 300 for Sparta

So basically, we get to keep the tech we trade, but they don't get to keep the money they trade Also, if we sell it to them with an embargo, it is worth even less to them.

I don't really know enough about the game mechanics to say if this is a great trade though, but I am guessing it is. We can certainly use those ec:s to hurry troops to speed up our invasion of Arcadia. The faster we attack Morgan, the weaker they are. Of course, if we give them Eco Eng, they'll have enough minerals to build shiny titanium briefcases for an entire generation of defense attorneys. And HEC will allow them to brew some nasty xenobrew for their christmas parties. Which tech are we actually selling here?

[Modo44]

Originally posted by Snoddasmannen
Which tech are we actually selling here?

This is the point you didn't really consider, eh? Anything useful to them, should have a big price tag on it. Because, if they get it now, they'll have more time to prepare to defend, with better technology. It's not like the pure research cost matters. Like I said, the time adds value as well. Also, the specific application is something to consider.

Yes, we need cash, and yes, we should get it. My point is, we should not sell technology that would make us spend cash, by making their defense easier. Or, at the very least, sell it for more than just the research cost.

[Snoddasmannen]

Originally posted by Modo44

This is the point you didn't really consider, eh? Anything useful to them, should have a big price tag on it. Because, if they get it now, they'll have more time to prepare to defend, with better technology. It's not like the pure research cost matters. Like I said, the time adds value as well. Also, the specific application is something to consider.

Yes, we need cash, and yes, we should get it. My point is, we should not sell technology that would make us spend cash, by making their defense easier. Or, at the very least, sell it for more than just the research cost.

I certainly see your point, I just don't agree with research cost being such a definitive cut-off point. Remember, we don't have a monopoly on these techs, they might be able to steal or trade them off Zak or Lal or Yang, and then we would have gotten 0 instead of 300 for it. But let's wait and see if they actually make an offer before we have an official vote, where we'll probably have to agree to disagree anyway

[Modo44]

I'm sorry to say, that I don't know enough about the impact of whatever we are selling. SMAC is just too easy in SP, so I never had to learn. I'm counting on others' opinions on this.

[Googlie]

Right now it's Ecol Eng that we're dickering about (Morgan gets it self-researched in 2155.

We got it in a trade from Zak in exchange for Ind Auto, which we got from the Gaians in a trade for Gene Splicing which we stole from Zak (and the Gaian Ind Auto trade was embargoed, but we bullied them mercilessly to get the embargo lifted so that we could trade it to the AI)

So as far as our "research costs" for Ecol Eng are concerned, they amount to a trannie and a probe team, and a few years in transit.

Let's look at Morgan now, and how valuable this tech is to us - and them

Right now it's "worthless" to us in that Morgan will have it independently in 2155, or can probe it from Yang, Zak or Lal (risking Vendetta, which is bad for Morgan commerce) - or can trade it to them, or buy it from them.

My guess is that none of the AI is talking to them.

We are a source for them getting it.

They'd be crazy to pay more than 431 ec's for it. 'cos that's what it costs them to self research it.

Forgetting for the moment that they can change to another tech when the get EE, they'd be hard pressed to justify paying more than 174 ec's this turn for it (that's all they have left to pay to get it themselves.

They can afford to wait us out - in 20 turns they'll have 4 more self-researched techs while we still will be plodding along our "tech every 37 years" path (excepting our trade with the Angels for Int Int)

So to my math, this turn the tech is worth somewhere between 187 and 431 (and last year was worth between 261 and 431), with an escalator factor in that it accelerates their getting of their next tech (which may or not be HEC - their "holy grail" is bio-engineering for its clean reactors)

If we price it too high, then the techs just become useless inventory in our tech shelves. If we are concerned about a tech making Morgan too strong, then lets be honest and say "Sorry, it's not on the market" (as we have done with Nonlinear Math - we have bluntly said to all "We don't trade military technologies")

How badly do we need cash?

Well, we could mind control Monitoring Station for 700 ec's - that gives us a size-7 base with all facilities intact and 3 useful defenders inside. I'd say that was worth giving Morgan Ecol Eng and Env Econ in exchange.

That's the big picture we have to look at, rather than focussing in whether Morgan should pay 400 or 300 ec's by buying from us. (And in reality, for us, it's prolly 300 ec's or nothing, as there is a point at which - for Morgan - it isn't worth buying)

[Modo44]

Alright, I get it. We are still a long way from actually invading Morgan. As it is, stalling their tech pace would be of less value, than I suspected. My points have been made, which is enough at the moment. I will give in to the majority on the final decision of the Junta.


In view of the power of Morgan's research, I think we should seriously consider taking those people down ASAP. I'd like to I propose that we prepare an invasion as soon as Zak is dealt with, or sufficiently crippled (depending on how the campaign progresses). Perhaps even while Zak is being dealt with, to try and catch Morgan off-guard. Otherwise, in my opinion, we are running a serious risk of being out-researched beyond the point of a possible Spartan win. Even if we can make good research efforts (assuming complete subjagation of Zak, and Lal) in the future, Morgan can do it now. And the longer we stay slow, the closer they get. I find it too dangerous to let them keep that trend.

[Maniac]

Originally posted by Modo44
What I don't like is them assuming they can take money from us without a clear agreement. We didn't offer to just pay them 50 energy credits, and they didn't write a thing about it, they just took some cash without asking. Now I see why we shouldn't make per-turn deals with those people.

Yeah I agree. That's why if we trade EcoEng we should try to get an immediate lump sum of cash. Because we might be forced to declare vendetta on them soon to eliminate their gator.

[Googlie]

The turn has been sent to the gaians (it's now 2154) and when Morgan opens his they'll be 1 year away from Ecol Eng, so the pressure is mounting on them to do a deal this next turn.

I agree that we want oodles of cash now, not spread over the next umpteen years.

So I suggest that Kasssi takes the initiative while they are still deciding what's a fair price by saying something like:

"We should advise you that were a sale of Ecological Engineering from the Federation to the Corporation - or indeed any other future trade - be consumated, we would want at least half the agreed price to be up front.

It has galled us that you suspended payments to us for Ethical Calculus (while you unilaterally charged us the 50 ec's payment for your lost probe defender) while all the time you have been enjoying the use of Ethical Calculus

The Junta has determined that this will not happen again"

Something like that, that preps them for a heftier upfront payment while at the same time letting them know that we didn't like their unilateral high-handedness in just docking 50 ec's from our paycheques.