Sparta-Morgan Relations

[Maniac]

I like Googlie's latest reply.

Btw, should we try to get promises from them too that they won't try to infiltrate or probe us, just like we're promising not to perform hostile actions? After all it is kind of hypocritical that they are blaming us while they have two Gators sailing in the Buster Ocean.

We could ask the Morganites the exact following, by simply switching the words "Junta" and "Corporation":

originally posted by Mead
How will we given given assuarances that future unfriendly acts will not be conducted against the Corporation?
...
How can we continue an association with the Junta unless we have clear promises from the Junta that no Junta units will approach our borders (to be within striking distance of our cites or territory) without prior notice to the Corporation. How can we continue association with the Junta without a clear promise from the Junta that no hostile military actions be taken agains the Corporation. How can we continue any association with the Junta without a clear promise from the Junta that no probe actions be carried out that are directed against or are detrimental to the Corporation?

Perhaps, if they expect any compensation, we should ask them to reveal the current location of their Gators if they are within strike range, and ask them to withdraw. Or else... sink them according to the Modo Doctrine!

[Modo44]

Sure. IF they want to be safe, they need to agree to our firendly (oh so firendly ) proposals. The most important thing is to keep them in the dark about the technology. Just do as if the whole probing was a big subject, and the trades just something going nearby. So yes, definately talk about the Gators. Just don't ask about the positions, simply tell them we would be very sorry if we had to sink those boats.

[Googlie]

I posted this in the Embassy for their consideration

Proposed addition to Morgan-Sparta Treaty

Treaty of Friendship between Morgan Corporation and the Sparta Federation
2150 Codicil

The Corporation and the Federation jointly agree, during the currency of this Treaty (to 2159):

• unless by mutual agreement, not to initiate any hostile act against each other, such acts to include probe infiltration or other acts of a covert operations nature,
• to respect the territorial integrity of each others landmass territory by not landing units (probe or otherwise exploratory) and by not founding bases on each others territory
• unless by mutual agreement, to respect the inviolability of each others airspace and to refrain form overflying such airspace

[Maniac]

The latest from Morgan:

A question I have regarding this deal would be as to why go through the trouble to have us research I.I. when the Federation itself seems positioned to research it right now? Have the Spartan researchers been so swamped that it would take more than a few turns more than the Morganite researchers, making outsourcing worthwhile? The Hive does indeed have a considerable army ready, but its going to take us time for us too research I.I. as well. Will the Federation have the crawlers ready when the tech is? If need be, the Federation could pay the Corporation extra to jack up its research really high to get I.I. faster.

I think it will cost more than Social Psych and D loyalty for the Corporation to research I.I. RIGHT NOW. I wonder if it is more than the Federation is willing to pay? I think that will be considered a rip-off by the Federation. Alternatively, there are some forms of compensation other than tech. I, for one, would be interested in neural grafting instead of Social Psych. It will probably be necessary to add some EC on our end to balance out that trade. I am mentioning this, because we don't have an answer now, but it would be worth mentioning to the Federation something. The Federation may wish to just sit back and see what we decide.

Note that the infiltration has delayed an answer to the I.I. research proposal acceptance.

Long term hostility to the V.E. incident is unlikely, but the Corporation has not yet decided how to resolve the issue. We'll resolve this issue faster than any I.I. tech deal.

It is worth noting that the holidays will be upon us soon, and many of our VPs are looking forward to spending some of their hard earned money at our many luxury spas soon. I think Mead has already left, but may hold small conferences via holophone.

They're trying to get more out of the deal obviously, and let us pay more than SocPsych & DocLoy.

Perhaps our reply to a few points of them could be like this?

A question I have regarding this deal would be as to why go through the trouble to have us research I.I. when the Federation itself seems positioned to research it right now? Have the Spartan researchers been so swamped that it would take more than a few turns more than the Morganite researchers, making outsourcing worthwhile?

As we have gone Fundamentalist with the 20% research penalty, we have chosen to minimize our research effort and focus instead on credits. As a consequence of this choice, while we are indeed researching IntInt ourselves right now, it would be more efficient and faster if the Corporation - without a research penalty - would research Intellectual Integrity.

I guess it wouldn't be good for our bargaining position if we told them it would take us 90 years to research IntInt. Better let it appear it's a 'choice' not to research IntInt ourselves.

but its going to take us time for us too research I.I. as well. Will the Federation have the crawlers ready when the tech is? If need be, the Federation could pay the Corporation extra to jack up its research really high to get I.I. faster.

I guess within six years would be the time we have the crawlers and credits to build the CDF. So AFAIK for the SP getting IntInt faster wouldn't make a difference I guess.

I think it will cost more than Social Psych and D loyalty for the Corporation to research I.I. RIGHT NOW.

I'm wondering, is this sentence a continuation of their line of thought to speed up research of IntInt, or are they trying to make us pay more for IntInt even when they don't speed up research? In case of the latter, perhaps a reply like this?

May we inquire to the reason why it would cost more than SocPsych & DocLoy to research IntInt? According to our analists you'd be able to select IntInt after being provided SocPsych & DocLoy.

Alternatively, there are some forms of compensation other than tech. I, for one, would be interested in neural grafting instead of Social Psych. It will probably be necessary to add some EC on our end to balance out that trade. I am mentioning this, because we don't have an answer now,

Hmm, perhaps tell them that in the near future we would certainly be willing to leapfrog with them towards Neural Grafting (by providing them SoTHB for example), but right now we wouldn't be able to give them Neural Grafting, for the same reason that we are asking them to research IntInt: we have chosen to slow down our research since we're running Fundy?

[Googlie]

But what is puzzling is:

posted in teh embassy by argenine

Alternatively, there are some forms of compensation other than tech. I, for one, would be interested in neural grafting instead of Social Psych. It will probably be necessary to add some EC on our end to balance out that trade.

So they'd aniticipate their paying us some ec's to balance out?

eg

Sparta >>> Morgan Soc Psych, Doc Loyalty and Neural Grafting

Morgan >> Sparta Int Int plus xxx ec's

Seems odd

[Snoddasmannen]

Originally posted by Googlie
But what is puzzling is:

Sparta >>> Morgan Soc Psych, Doc Loyalty and Neural Grafting

Morgan >> Sparta Int Int plus xxx ec's

Seems odd

As I see it they're basically saying that they want Neural Grafting vs. xxx ec's amended to the trade. Makes sense to me, or am I missing something?

[Modo44]

Basically we now know exactly, what tech they want badly. And obviously they feel they can pay for it (i.e. they have cash stored, or can make enough).

It looks like this to me:

1. We either trade straight, with both factions getting the techs they need (want, whatever), in which case they'd have to pay to even the deal out (Or they feel in advantage in such a deal, so they think they need to pay more - but it's not likely, they are Morgan after all).

2. Or, they research Int Int for us (so to speak), but that will cost us more than standard price (because only we would be getting the tech we want).


Too bad they weren't fooled long enough by our probe, and their own panic. Oh well.

[Maniac]

Bad news (I think). Something I was mistaken about: It seems Morgan does need to receive a third tech in order to be able to choose IntInt next:



So what could we give them? Secrets of the Human Brain, as a prerequisite to Neural Grafting? Or another tech, such as eg EcoEng.
What would be a reasonable price in credits? 100c, since that might be the price Zak or Lal ask for a tech (or would it have risen by now?)? Or more, since they seem to attach high importance to Neural Grafting?

[Googlie]

Well, we should offer Ecol Eng - they'll probesteal it from Zak pretty soon anyway, so we might as well get brownie points for giving it them

(Unless they are mentioning Neural Grafting as a way to extract Secrets from us - they have lost 4 colony pods - to mindworms I imagine - and trancing them will let them survive 1 attack)

And I'd gift it instead of charging (as part of the 3 techs for Int Int package) - after all, they don't need Social Psych so long as they stick to size-3 bases. I imagine they've changed to it just as a "holding mechanism" while they deliberate on our proposal and discuss how to extract maximum advantage from us. It's no biggie for them next turn to change and lose 1/2 research points - their next tech would be in 5 turns versus 4, ho hum

We need Int Int. (We also need NG, plus D:AP for MMI and the Cyborg Factory)

[Googlie]

Suggested edits to Maniac's proposed response to arginine (my bold italics):

Originally posted by Maniac
As we have gone Fundamentalist with the 20% research penalty, we have chosen to minimize our research effort and focus instead on credits. As a consequence of this choice, while we are indeed researching IntInt ourselves right now, it would be more efficient and faster if the Corporation - without a research penalty - would research Intellectual Integrity. For example, even running Democracy and Free Market, and maximizing laboratory output, it would be 20 years until our next breakthrough

May we inquire to the reason why it would cost more than SocPsych & DocLoy to research IntInt? According to our analists you'd be able to select IntInt after being provided SocPsych & DocLoy.

Indeed you have a point. Our analysts are now telling us that our passing to the Corporation of Social psych and Doc: Loyalty would not be enough - Int Int would not appear as a research choice for the Corporation. Accordingly we would also be willing to pass to you either the technology of Ecological Engineering or Secrets of the Human Brain (either of which would be sufficient to produce Int Int as a research choice for the Corporation)

Hmm, perhaps tell them that in the near future we would certainly be willing to leapfrog with them towards Neural Grafting (by providing them SoTHB for example), but right now we wouldn't be able to give them Neural Grafting, for the same reason that we are asking them to research IntInt: we have chosen to slow down our research since we're running Fundy?

(And should Kass now resume diplo duties, or should I reply to Argenine - or Maniac)?

[Maniac]

Hmm, I posted a quick reply in the embassy since the turn is now with the Morganites. Better give them an update. My message can still be edited of course.

Question:

For example, even running Democracy and Free Market, and maximizing laboratory output, it would be 20 years until our next breakthrough

What's the advantage of telling them this information?

[Modo44]

Don't disclose how slow our research is. That's our only weakness at the moment.

[Googlie]

My sense is that they'll back off doing Int Int for us - if they think we're just 9 to 12 turns away, for example, what's the hurry in getting it in 6 from them

They'll have yang infiltrated by now, and wills ee how strong he is. They'll reckon (correctly) that we need D:AP before we take him on (and maybe even not then if by then he has fusion, chaos and silksteel)

I'm thinking (as I build the Morgan part of our sim) that they're researching Soc Psych, not to help us leapfrog, but rather as they've reached the boundaries of their horizontal expansion and are about to switch to vertical.

They don't need us at all, whereas we need them desperately - at least until we get the 6 university bases with their network nodes in our hands

So I don't see any downside in telling them we're a couple of decades away from our next tech until the others catch up in # techs (and in that light, maybe we shouldn't probe Env econ until we have somethign we can use it on - we're not (yet) going for tree farms, nor are we going to raise/lower terrain and we're nowhere being hampered by the energy restriction)

[Modo44]

My point is based on the same assumption - they don't need us to do research. And if they learn how little we can do about us needing them... they will simply not help. Because, after the short panic, the now think themselves safe.

And speaking of Yang (an other AIs)... Should we not try to use him against other human-controlled factions? Or is there a real danger of one AI running away with the game?

[Googlie]

Well - Yang is currently in Vendetta agaisnt the Gaians (and massing troops at his nearest base to them.)

But he's also got an impressive 9 unit army assembling at his nearest base to Morgan, so I think that he sees morgan as his main threat, with all those juicy bases

I've tried these last 2 turns to contact him, (to try and get R-112 rehomed) but he won't answer his connlinks, so I'm not sure what more we can do to get him more aggressive towards the others

At some time we'll get the "get into the 22nd century where religion is meaningless" speech from him, so we need to be prepared for hostility at some point (or change to police for better drone control, maybe)