Hive call to Planetary Government for CPU-PEACE ceasefire!

[Drogue]

Originally posted by GeoModder
welfare of former PEACE citizens. We would ask the Hive, if this is the case, to stop playing politics with former PEACE citizens

Much better, thanks

[Drogue]

Posted reply. I also posted a short reply to FlameFlash, reiterating the points about why we started the war, about their actions. If it is unacceptable it can be removed, but as EAF, I felt it ok to reply.

[MrWhereItsAt]

Drogie - just read your response. Overall it was rather excellent. There were one or two words there that sounded slightly provocative to me, and I would not have used them in your place, but that is not for me to judge, and anyway your response was, as mentioned, pretty damn good.

Where to go from here? They have basically reiterated everything they have said before. They have no proof of mistreatment, nor do they have support from any but half-enthused PEACE member posts. We have to tell them that we stand by all decisions, we again invite PEACE to the Peace table if they are willing to talk, and maybe even invite the Hive to get PEACE to the diplomatic table if they feel they can convice them. We have no expansionistic agenda, and we were merely removing a threat to the the stability of all Planet. The threat is removed and we are eager to live in peace with all factions, provided they are willing to live in peace along with us.

NO provocation. I don't care how much any PEACE or Hive member foams at the mouth, we must stay the cautious polite diplomat the whole time. Emotion will only aggravate proceedings.

I will post again later once I have read ofer the Hive's responses in some detail.

[Drogue]

Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt
Drogie - just read your response. Overall it was rather excellent. There were one or two words there that sounded slightly provocative to me, and I would not have used them in your place, but that is not for me to judge, and anyway your response was, as mentioned, pretty damn good.

Thank you I wanted to be firm. I changed bits to make it less aggressive, aggression is not my intention. However a firm rebuttle was needed, IMHO. I am not going to tone down so much that my meaning is changed, however I do not intend to inflate.

In other words, I agree that it was slightly provocative in places, but only in the way that a firm denial must be.

Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt
Where to go from here? They have basically reiterated everything they have said before. They have no proof of mistreatment, nor do they have support from any but half-enthused PEACE member posts. We have to tell them that we stand by all decisions, we again invite PEACE to the Peace table if they are willing to talk, and maybe even invite the Hive to get PEACE to the diplomatic table if they feel they can convice them. We have no expansionistic agenda, and we were merely removing a threat to the the stability of all Planet. The threat is removed and we are eager to live in peace with all factions, provided they are willing to live in peace along with us.

IMHO, we must reiterate that we were wronged, and point out the the UN charter is not the mandate for the Planetary Council. Atrocities are defined in SMAC, and we have not committed any. Atrocity prohibitions havbe not been lifted, and we have stuck to them. If the Hive want to include acts of aggression as banned by it, then we will include self-governance too. A Police State is as reprehensible as a war.

Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt
NO provocation. I don't care how much any PEACE or Hive member foams at the mouth, we must stay the cautious polite diplomat the whole time. Emotion will only aggravate proceedings.

Of course. This is my department. I like being rational and firm in the face of provocation, because I can't be emotional about it. I'm actually surprisingly like a true CyCon when it comes to debates

Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt
I will post again later once I have read ofer the Hive's responses in some detail.

I am preparing a response too, as with all official responces, it will be posted her before being posted on the main forum, to help iron out any changes needed.

[MrWhereItsAt]

I don't have a full response, but a few points on what they (and we) have said so far.

Originally posted by Drogue
War will not spread to other factions, presume those other factions do not interfere.

They seized on this with this reply:

Originally posted by Voltaire
They threaten this Council if it attempts to do its moral duty in freeing the People of PEACE against the invaders.

I think we should explain that their interpretation is incorrect. By 'interference' we mean military action interfering with our own faction. We would naturally protect ourselves against any such action. Any diplomatic initiative will of course be welcomed and worked with - we are not aggressors, but we strive for stability and peace on Planet.

A few times over Voltaire goes on about how we 'do not deny our guilt'. We are not guilty of anything except removing the military capability of a rogue state that threatened peace and efficiency in our region.

Originally posted by Voltaire
This Council should be well informed that the CyCon keep tight controls on information coming out of PEACE bases.

We are not keeping PEACE citizens from saying anything. We present only the facts. Sadly this does not mean they will be accepted as such by all, as is the case here.

Finally Voltaire talks about how we have broken international law by invading a sovereign state. How about we say that we have broken no treaty that was signed by Planet factions, and although the right of a sovereign state to control its own affairs is an ideal held too by the CPU, there have to be considerations made for security and safety. There are certainly instances where sovereign nations were 'invaded' in order to remove dangerous elements - just look at the beginning of the 21st Century. Once the kerfuffle had died down the world situation was unquestionably safer for billions.

Put it this way - if a faction attacked Hive interests or threatened Hive citizens' safety and wellbeing, would the Hive not react to protect them? That is the case here, where elements within the PEACE authorities were making their untoward attentions all too well known. Many Cyborgs were cheated and lost their livelihoods because of direct witting action by the PEACE leadership. The selfsame leadership was abusing their own citizens, and in CyCon's establishing code of equality for all, this was not acceptable. By removing the PEACE leadership we will have succeeded in making Planet safer and more conducive to peace for ALL factions. As the Hive states they share the same policy, why are they not aiding in the construction of a stronger peace?

[MrWhereItsAt]

Overall I guess just reiterate we are doing this for improved peace and to eliminate the threat of a rogue faction without harming the civilian populace who want no part of their leadership's behaviour. We are committed to peace as a goal, and committed to working with our brothers at the Hive, with the Drones and with the PEACE citizenry for the benefit of all. Diplomatic measures are welcomed, and if the Hive wants a settlement then we should recommend they convince PEACE to come to the negotiations table they have ignored for so long now.

We ask the Hive to look at the history of cooperation we have had until just recently, and to help rekindle that. We are puzzled and hurt by their apparent turn against us, and ask that they try to work with us rather than throw accusations and make demands themselves. We should urge the Hive leadership not to buy in to the unsubstantiated claims of some and ask them why they are jeopardising peace further in this way.

Oh, and one more thing - we should ask them why they have waited so long before deciding to have a problem with the elimination of PEACE's offensive capabilities - there was not a word against it until now, and we have to question their timing. (Of course they are just worried we are getting too powerful with the union with PUT )

[Drogue]

Here is my reply to Kody:

Originally posted by Kody
I felt I should clarify something that may have been misunderstood at the time. The Hive stated to the cycon at the start of the war that it wished it remain netural. The majority vote was not to get involved either way at the time. There was no agreement made with the Cycon, simply the Hive stated that it was not interested in getting involved.

I suppose it depends on your definition of an agreement. The Hive stated that it wished to remain neutral, that it saw it as a private affair between PEACE and the CyCon, and that it would not aid PEACE (militarily or by giving them military technology). Personally, I would consider that an agreement. However with it being so long ago, I am afraid that I do not have the PMs and chatlogs still.

I am merely questioning why now? Why are the Hive, a faction that has helped us in the war, providing us with infiltration information on PEACE, now saying that they disagree with it. You were informed of the war many years before we actually declared it. I went too far, int he eyes of many of my faction, in telling your Ambassador about our plans for war long before they were made public, including when it was brought forward two years. At the time, the Hive voiced no concerns whatsoever about our actions, and indeed accepted our explanation for those events. Why have you suddenly changed. I will reiterate. You have changed because since our unification with PUT we have become stronger, and you are trying to find an excuse to weaken us. I would again ask the Hive to stop playing politics with the issues of former PEACE citizens.

********

My reply to Octavian X:

Originally posted by Octavian X
The Hive will restate it's message: we request the return of ALL PEACE bases to the soverign government of the PEACE people, as well as proper repirations from the CPU to PEACE to pay for the obvious pain and suffering that the citizens of the PEACE have gonbe though.

I will ask again, why now? Why has the Hive changed it's tune from supporting our war with information, to condeming it. I also point out that sine the war started years before the Council existed, it is not a conflict over which it has authority. PEACE did not offer us any favourable agreements when they helped a noose around our necks, strangling our trade and playing us off against other factions, why should we offer them agreements that hurt us now, when they have shown us no suich courtesy? And finally, I would ask the Hive to stop making accusations that are completely unfounded. There is no pain to former PEACE citizens.

********

And my reply to Voltaire:

Originally posted by Voltaire
Honorable members of the Council I would like to remind the CPU representative that this Council has as its mandate the United Nations Charter from Old Earth.

Actually, that is incorrect. There are clearly defined atrocities which warrant council actions, such as use of Planet Busting weaponry, nervestapling and the uise of nerve gas. We have committed no such atrocities. There is no charter that the CPU has agreed to that forbids the use of aggression, especially as a last resort. Moreover, this war was started many years before this Council existed, and as such it has no place to intervene in this war. I would ask the Hiverian representative to show me the piece of legislature that we have broken, and the evidence for their accusation, or to withdraw it.

Originally posted by Voltaire
the CPU are avoiding the issue, they do not deny they were the aggressor and nor do they deny that they violated PEACE sovereignty.

Depends what you consider aggression. We explained, before the war, the actions PEACE had taken that led to our decision to engage in war. We used military force first, that is true, but we felt aggrieved at the actions of PEACE.

There are many issues, and we are avoiding none of them. One of those issues is why the Hive supported our war, and has not changed their minds now.

Originally posted by Voltaire
This Council should not stand for such sophistry; you are the aggressors and the occupying forces. The fact that you have built infrastructure does not legitimize you in the eyes of the PEACE populace, you invaded their land, took the lives of their soldiers, and caused destruction to their homes.

You are avoiding the point raised here. The point Comrade Octavian X made was that of the likelihood of a humanitarian disaster. As I said before, that likelihood is less than the it was under PEACE rule, due to the extra facilities we are building. If you make a point, we will address it. To then states a different point entirely in answer to ours seems illogical. We never argued our building of facilities legitimized anything, we argued that it reduced the chance of a humanitarian disaster, which it does. Please do not try to twist our words to try to address a point they were not. (is this last sentance too strong? It felt it needed to be pointed out, but it might antagonise?)

Originally posted by Voltaire
The democracy of warmonger is no democracy at all.

I disagree. Democracy is rule by the people. Whether in times of war or peace, that does not change. The democracy of a Police State is no democracy, however.

Originally posted by Voltaire
As Chairman of the Human Hive I am deeply offended by the attempts of CPU to distract you from the issue of this meeting, that of their act of aggression, by insulting the peace-loving people of the Human Hive.

As the special envoy of CPU I amk deeply offended that the Human Hive supports our war, then calls a meeting, without giving us time to send an envoy, stating that it must be stopped. I am deeply offended that the Human Hive flings accusations without providing any source or evidence, even when asked. I am deeply offended that the Human Hive tried to use a Council mandate, that does not even include condemning acts of war, that was written after the war was started, to try to argue against a war they helped start, all without a shred of evidence for such atrocities they claim we have committed, or even showing us any international law that we have broken. The whole proposition seems ludicrous.

Originally posted by Voltaire
Our government provides everything for its people; we are a People’s Democratic Dictatorship under the direct control of the People of the Human Hive following the principles of Democratic Centralism. You call us tyrants because we refuse to let those who would harm the people do so, if this is tyranny and what you exemplify democracy I for one cannot say I want your democracy. But this aside, we are willing to look away from the insult and work together for a constructive solution to the problem.

We do not and have never called you tyrants. We have not insulted the Human Hive at all, and we object to you making up such accusations. I merely pointed out that if you wish to write into a Council mandate that war is unacceptable, then why should we not do the same with a denial of self governance? A faction that denies it's people their right to self governance has no place telling another faction that a different group of people have a right to self governance. Furthermore, you claim that our attempts to legitimize our actions (which we were not doing in that instance) with our building of facilities is incorrect, yet you legitimize your authoritarian rule with the same argument, that your government provides what the people need.

Originally posted by Voltaire
Innocent civilians always suffer during war and under occupation.

Source? Evidence?

Originally posted by Voltaire
The point of the matter is that war should not have begun at all, members of the Council, they do not even deny their guilt, but affirm it with such words. They threaten this Council if it attempts to do its moral duty in freeing the People of PEACE against the invaders.

The Council has no such duty legally, and you will pardon me if I do not believe that the Hive dictates their own morals to the Council. The Council is there to keep international law, which has not been broken. Please provide the piece of legislature that we have broken, and the evidence that we have broken it, so that we might show you that it is untrue.

However I do feel the ned to clarify a point earlier. When we said

War will not spread to other factions, presume those other factions do not interfere.

We meant interfere by aiding PEACE in their war effort. If another faction joins PEACE against us, we will defend ourselves, but we will not start an unprovoked war.

Originally posted by Voltaire
The People of the Hive have changed their position on this war from that time, the government acted then in the interests of the People to keep relations friendly; our neutrality was not a sign of approval of your actions.

No, but comments by high ranking Hiverian officials on such things as "we understand why you did it" (paraphrased), and the aiding of our war with military information on PEACE, are signs of approval.

Originally posted by Voltaire
The Hive will not get involved in the conflict, we want peace to resume. You again admit that you were aggressors. The ending of the Pact was on ground of your expansionist policies

Not at all. The ending of the Pact was due to the insults and accusations of PEACE, as well as their attempts to use underhand tactics to gain more from our trading deals, as explained before.

Originally posted by Voltaire
too often throughout history good people have let evil get too far, are we to stand idly by while aggressors destroy human lives? We have learned our lesson well from World War II, never again will it occur.

In World War II there was a mandate for defence. The agreements the British and French had that brought them into the war were legal documents. The Hive has no such agreement with PEACE, and neither does the Council. We have offered PEACE terms that will end the destruction of human life. We do not wish it at all, we wish to preserve it as much as possible. However they have not only refused that, they have refused to negotiate at all. We will happily enter negotiations with PEACE, but our advances as such have been refused.

Originally posted by Voltaire
If war is not aggressive, members of the Council, I do not know what is. However you were treated DOES NOT justify war.

That is an opinion. Without an international body to bring our concerns to, such as this Council, in place at the time, we had no other options. They had treated us unfairly, in our opinion. We had been wronged. Without a body of international law, we had to take it into our own hands.

Originally posted by Voltaire
They accuse us of dishonesty members of the Council, we speak here of facts, and only facts of their aggression.

No, you speak of facts of our atrocities, and of violations of international law. Yet you provide no evidence, no source, and no piece of legislature that we have broken. We have also not accused you of dishonesty. We have accused you of having an ulterior motive for this action, and of playing politics with the lives of former PEACE citizens.

Originally posted by Voltaire
To claim that we are disinterested is absurd, all of us are looking out for ourselves, but we cannot look out for ourselves at the exclusion of our neighbors.

You did it quite well for years before, why change now? You have no legitimate legal reason to be involved at all.

Originally posted by Voltaire
Again you do not deny your guilt. Members of the Council the crisis here is that citizens of PEACE are being occupied by hostile forces, the CyCon have initiated a war that has cost many lives, they have occupied a people who did not seek their help and continue to occupy a people who do not want them there.

I would disagree that there is a crisis. As my post sais, there is no humanitarian disaster, and the people are not being constrained, prejudiced against, or in any way discriminated against. They are CPU citizens.

Again, you claim that we occupy a people that did not seek our help, yet you do the same. Your people have not asked to be ruled, they are ruled by a Police State. Former PEACE citizens have self governance. They vote for our leaders, as we live in a democracy. They have more say in their own lives, in how their bases are run, than Hive citizens do. So to claim that we forcing our rule open them is a lot less true than it is for any Hive base.

Originally posted by Voltaire
You affirm the right of Hive citizens to self rule and not those of PEACE? You affirm the sovereignty of the Hive and not that of PEACE?

Former PEACE citizens have self rule. They have a democracy, and they vote for their leaders. That is self rule. And we affirm the sovereignty of all factions. However former PEACE bases are now CPU bases, and come under our sovereignty. We also have sovereign rule over our forces, and therefore believe that it is not up to the Council whether these forces are used.

Originally posted by Voltaire
Members of the Council such an agreement is not one of peace, it is an ultimatum: “Join us freely now or we will make you join us.” PEACE does not want to be part of the CyCon, that is why the CyCon have resorted to violence. The Hive government cannot accept any such agreement as legal for it would have been reached under coercive means. If the CyCon truly want peace then let them end hostilities immediately and enter into negotiations supervise by this Council.

PEACE government does not wish to be part of CPU. PEACE citizens have not spoken. We wished, and still wish, to start negotiations with PEACE. They have refused to negotiate with us.

Originally posted by Voltaire
This Council should be well informed that the CyCon keep tight controls on information coming out of PEACE bases

That is both unsubstanciated, unsupported, and untrue. Please provide evidence for such wild allegations.

Originally posted by Voltaire
War is the last refuge of the incompetent and the first refuge of the scoundrel.

War is the last refuge for everyone. When all else has failed, it is what you are left with. We did not want war, but the relationship broke down, for reasons we have said before, and it was the only logical option left to us. Why have pity for a faction that has repeatedly tried to do us over, to gain at our expense? If they had shown us an ounce of compassion, we would not have acted as we did.

When PEACE refuse to negotiate, what option do we have but to continue to press our war?

Originally posted by Voltaire
To claim you had no choice but to go to war is a lie. You have invaded a sovereign state and you have initiated an act of aggression, both of which as in violation of the UN Charter.

Neither of which have broken any agreement we have signed. Neither of which are against international law. Neither of which are classed as atrocities, acts of terrorism, or violations of international law, as you have tried to claim. Please stated the evidence and the legislature, for these accusations, or withdraw them.

Originally posted by Voltaire
International law has been broken members of the Council, but it appears as though the CyCon delegate just conveniently happened to be ignorant of international law.

International law has not been broken. Wild and unsubstanciated allegations have been thrown at CPU, without evidence, legislature or even a source to back it up. It seems that the Hive is trying to write international law as it sees fit, without providing any legislature for such an action. The UN Charter is not the mandate for the Council. Certain factions that have long since disbanded tried to make it as such. However atrocities are well defined, and are illegal, under international law, but are all that is illegal. The UN Charter is not a legal document on Chiron. There is not even the option to vote for it to be as such in the Council.

Moreover, any such Charter, were it ratified, would only relate to actions taken after it's signing. This war started before there was a Planetary Council, and so actions before then would not be bound by the same rules. However they is, and has never, been a UN Charter that has been ratified on Chiron as international law. International law forbids atrocities only. The bottom line is that there is no law against war, and against aggression. The Hive has made many unsubstanciated allegations to terrorism, atrocities and violations of international law. We have not committed any of these. We admit to going to war, with the Hive's aid at the time, and for reasons that have been presented to the Hive government. Even without those, what we did was not illegal. War is not banned by international law.

We ask the Hive to look at the history of cooperation we have had until just recently, and to help rekindle that. We are puzzled and hurt by their apparent turn against us, and ask that they try to work with us rather than throw accusations and make demands themselves. We should urge the Hive leadership not to buy in to unsubstantiated claims.

********

mart: Please delete your post, and read this thread before posting. We do not wish to alarm them in such a way, and that thread needs to be void of emotional posts.

[Drogue]

MWIA: Some nice points, however trying to make it like the US attacking Iraq isn't a good idea IMHO. Too easy to argue against. Many people (Including me) feel that the world isn't safer for it. Also, trying to classify PEACE as a rogue state is a little hard, IMHO. Having said that, your point about us attacking anyone else did nead clarifiction, and I am updating due to that. Instead of claiming we are not guilty of anything except removing a rouge states offensive capabilities, I'd like to say we're not guilty at all. There is no law against war, it would be silly in a TBS game. There also isn't even an option for vote for there to be in the Council. All international law forbids are atrocities, and we haven't committed any. Legally, we're home and dry. Morally, the Hive is in no place to ask. If they want it, we can sue them for libel and claim that a Police State is also morally reprehensible.

Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt
We ask the Hive to look at the history of cooperation we have had until just recently, and to help rekindle that. We are puzzled and hurt by their apparent turn against us, and ask that they try to work with us rather than throw accusations and make demands themselves. We should urge the Hive leadership not to buy in to the unsubstantiated claims of some and ask them why they are jeopardising peace further in this way.

Nice Has been included

Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt
Oh, and one more thing - we should ask them why they have waited so long before deciding to have a problem with the elimination of PEACE's offensive capabilities - there was not a word against it until now, and we have to question their timing. (Of course they are just worried we are getting too powerful with the union with PUT )

Big point. I've tried to make a lot of that But not mentioning the unification until HongHu's post, becuase I don't want to counter accuse until I have provocation to do so.

[Drogue]

An answer to HongHu:

Originally posted by HongHu
The Hive is a peace loving faction. At the time of the CC PEACE war we didn't want to get involved because we believed it was a matter between the two nations and we had hoped they would be able to get the issue resolved between themselves without any outside interference.

It still will be, in the same we we predicted before, when we are victorious. This was explained to yourself before the war started.

Originally posted by HongHu
However, the situation has changed much since then. The CPU has become a powerful presence in the planet.

And there we get the reason for this action. The Hive feel threatened because two faction shave joined together. This has nothing to do with PEACE, but to do with disagreement over the unification.

Originally posted by HongHu
Thusfar its presence has not appeared to contribute to peace and development of the planet.

There has been no more war since that. If the Hive hadn't reduced the pact with the CyCon, relations would actually be better, in terms of strength of treaties overall.

Originally posted by HongHu
Rather, the Hive has been forced to come to the realization that a faction might be facing total elimination from the planet. It is not an internal matter between the two factions any more.

Two points. One, at the begining I explained that they may well be facing total elimination. Indeed, the thread Googlie started about what happens if they're eliminated was started because of the possibility. I do not see why it is obvious now but not then, when we were debating it.

Two, it is still an internal matter between our two factions. Nothing has changed on that front. The fact they are facign elimination was there from the start, and does not involve another faction in any way.

Originally posted by HongHu
It has become more and more an issue of regional security and stability. Every faction in the planet knows that if one faction can be eliminated one day, then itself may be the one that gets eliminated on another day. The Hive believes that such aggressiveness and threat toward humanity must be stopped using all means possible.

We have explained our reasons for war, and why it is a case solely relating to the CyCon and PEACE. As we said, as long as no-one insults us in that way, taking in game matters into the real life arena, and continually plays us to their own gain, and our loss, we will not wish war again. We were not unprovoked.

[Drogue]

An answer to foolish_icarus:

Originally posted by foolish_icarus
Arrrrr, worm ****, every single word. By neptune, you borgs do put a lot of effort into yer lying.

Please state where we lied, and what the truth is? Also, of you wish to accuse us of lying, please show evidence of your accusation.

I think that's it. Can I post these? A little overkill maybe, but hey, we are in the right, and if they want to agrue, they'd better damn well be prepared to substanciate it

[Drogue]

I have to go out now. I should be back online in about 2 hours. Please post any changes you'd want, etc, and I can post it later. A reply soon is needed, IMHO, to stop unauthorised comments.

I know it's long, but it's needed IMHO. Is it ok to post? Does anything need changing? Should we just sod it all, use the element of surprise, and attack the Hive?

[laurentius]

yeah its a bit long but it doenst matter since this is a such grave matter. And they'd better bloody read it even if it would be 10 pages long since theyr the ones who came up with all this nonsence.

Excellent responces Drogue and Mwia, I hope some day my english is even nearly as good as yours and I will be able to articulate in such an impressive way.

[DeathByTheSword]

may I state that the cycon government does not exist anymore. former cycon and Uni territory is now being govern by an internationally respected government known as CPU.

further May i state that because we do not live in a police state and no base is under martial law any citizen in CPU territory may go where it wants. we in fact have an open line between all CPU bases and current PEACE bases. only military forces are not allowed in current CPU territory

i have a small reply stated may i please post it?

[Nubclear]

Oooh.....Fights!

[Drogue]

Originally posted by DeathByTheSword
i have a small reply stated may i please post it?

That looks good if you want to post it. If it's something else, please post here first, and when someone agrees, post it