HIVE diplomatic exchanges

[Maniac]

I sent this PM to HongHu:

Hi HongHu,

SotHB is completely useless for us now. It would just mean increasing our research cost. If besides that we would also have to research a second tech Neural Grafting, which in itself seems like sufficient payment for Gene Splicing, such a deal seems rather non-profitable IMHO.
May I ask why you ask such a high price for Gene Splicing? Is it because you consider SotHB completely worthless as well, or is it because you attach a very high value to Gene Splicing for some reason?
Anyway, I was wondering, would the Hive be willing to accept a deal like follows:
MY 2150 or '51: you offer us Gene Splicing pre-accepted, so we can immediately accept it the same turn.
MY 2151: we offer you Adaptive Economics back pre-accepted. Due to the turn order, you would get that MY 2152 IIRC.

Greetings,

Mani Alpha-3
Prime Function of the Cybernetic Consciousness

If everything goes right, we should get AdapEcon from conquering Tripoli in MY 2151, and thus be able to offer it to the Hive. If the Hive would want to trade Gene Splicing for AdapEcon, but only if we trade at the same time, ie without them pre-accepting, what would be your opinion about obtaining AdapEcon instead of EthCalc from PEACE first? As to why we need Gene Splicing so fast: if we have it, we could perhaps select Synthetic Fossil Fuels as our next research target after we obtained EthCalc and thus need to switch research targets.

[Drogue]

I agree completely

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Maniac
I understand your decision. But couldn't you in a similar situation - instead of telling them or lying to them - simply say that you are not authorized to reveal such information, or that you first want to talk to the Collective before possibly giving an answer?

I thought building trust was more important personally. However maybe discretion would have been better While I still do, exact battle plans are a big thing to give. We could ask them why they want them (I have no idea) or we could wait until pacted after the initial strike, and then see PEACE details.

Originally posted by Maniac
Regarding winning together with the Hive and Drones, unless the situation has changed in the meantime, the Drones still don't want to win with three factions as it is too easy, and the Hive still doesn't want to betray or to win without the Drones. So until one of those two change opinion, it seems rather impossible to me to get a 3-way-victory. As a consequence we should at the moment think of our own interest first, and only then about the Hive.

I see your point. I still see that as the most likely finish, but I do accept the Drones reluctance. However if they get bored, we may see a different picture coming out.

Originally posted by Impaler[WrG]
I was more peved at the fact this information had gotten out without knowing WHO had given it out. If you reveal a significant secret to another faction please inform us of it so that the rest of us dont sound like fools when talking to them or get caught in a contraditon that may reveal us to be lieing (must keep our lies consistent you know).

I agree completely. I have to say it slipped my mind. With Oxford stuff and issues with my girlfriend on my mind, I forgot what I'd said. I am sorry for that.

Originally posted by Impaler[WrG]
I agree we realy realy want to avoid a long drawn out game with the all the factions trying to Grind each other up as this would take long time to finish if ever. But I think we should play as if thats a posibility. We want to grow our empire by concquest and expantion untill it rivals the Hive. My personal goal is to achive victory with the Hive and Drones subordinate to us rather then the other way around.

Hmmm, I'd like a co-operative victory personally, as equal partners. Would send a signal that competition was the problem of old earth, with both a socialist economy and a co-operative victory. Would show we can accept peace and co-operate for a better future. A nice symbol, IMHO.

Originally posted by Maniac
Indeed! Drogue, I get the impression you regularly have MSN chats with Hive members such as HongHu or Jamski. Though you are again more active the last few days, you were not the latest month or so. As a consequence we had no clue at all what the Hive possibly learned from you about us during those chats.

Actually, I have rare conversations. Indeed, you know about all the ones that have happened. In my absense, I was absent from the game as a whole, not just the forum, and have not spoken to Jamski or HongHu regarding the game.

Originally posted by Maniac
So if you discuss gameplay matters over MSN, could you please post the relevant chatlog here, so the rest of the Consciousness knows what the situation is?

That seems sensible. Very rarely is it discussed, so I will reproduce it here if I do from now on. I must apologise again for this debacle

[laurentius]

Seems like we have to do some comm rerouting in the conciousness mainframe.

/me goes out to buy some optic cable

[laurentius]

One more thing.
If all Hiverians know about our upcoming war, I think we must assume that someone may have hinted the PEACE out too.

[Drogue]

Why? There are few active Hiverians, and they are not friendly with PEACE. Moreover, PEACE haven't acted on it. Personally, I would be very surprised if PEACE know anything.

I don't think they would, since they have been pushing for a Pact with us, and theyhave much ton gain from our war. They know they won't get help against PUT, even if it's just protection of the seas, unless we beat PEACE. They have an interest in us winning the war. I don't think they would jeapodise that for anything that PEACE can offer them.

[Maniac]

The latest from HongHu:

Dear Function Maniac,

Yes you are right about SotHB. The Hive does not value it very high. The only reason we proposed it in the trade is because we did not know what other techs you have that can be traded with Gene Splicing. The only tech we know that you have for trade was initiative, which the Hive does not want. However we know that you wanted Gene Splicing, and that you may be able to get SotHB, thus the proposal. Now I'm glad to hear that we have other choices. I will for sure to convey this message back to the Hive.

I still haven't heard back from you regarding the other part of the proposal. I do not know what is your long term strategy in terms of other factions. However the Hive has strived to be open toward the CyCons. My feeling is if we could achieve a higher level of trust it will definitely facilitate many transactions between us. For example I have asked about CC's current research but have not got an answer. If I'd known that you have adaptive economics before we would certainly have given it a thorough discussion and perhaps we could reach a trade sooner. Please be assured that I'm not pushing you for anything you are not ready for. I'm simply expressing again the Hive's willingness of furthering our relationship and I'm sure we will work out the best.

HongHu

Does anyone know what "the other part of the proposal" is that HongHu is referring to? And when did she ask about our current research? Anyway, I'd propose that we tell them we are currently researching EthCalc, but then immediately ask exactly who owes what techs to who in the Hive-Drone relationship. Should we also propose a pact in MY 2150?

[Maniac]

Kody says in the VoyForum that PEACE has Gene Splicing. In that case it's a waste to trade the tech with the Hive if we can get it free from PEACE.

[Impaler[WrG]]

I just noticed the latest HIVE offer


Gene splicing for adaptive economics, as you've recently suggested. However, if the hive managed to build the planetary energy grid, we'll be willing to immediately trade you the second tech in exchange for a impact weapon prototype (the 2nd tech payed in advance).

I think a impact infantry is only 2 rows, and the hive will be willing to wait a few years for it. One of the hive players saw the AI already has impact and I'm sure you can trade it from them fairly easily. Anyway the hive needs better than 2-1-1 troops if you're going to use us to keep the university off your back.


Hive also said that PEACE has Gene Splicing, yet another tec we will be taking from them.
Thus we dont want to trade it with UNI anymore.

As we are going to get it anyways, I dont think we should be trading the Hive a tec that will give them a VERY nice Secret Project for a tec we would be able to get soon in any case. We should use our monomoply on Adaptive Economics to full potential and get the PEG as our next SP, we should be firm with the Hive on this, they have a huge industrial Capacity and will goggle up everything if they get a tec advantage over us. The PEG will create a LOT of energy for us and accelerate our building and future war upgrading imensly. If mind-control PEACE crawlers and/or build additional crawlers in the captured bases we can bring these back to our core territory and cash them to get this SP quite quickly.

We should make our next tec goal, SFF or Intilectualy Integrity (Int Int would require getting Loyalty from the Hive though, giving them Progenitor Pych would be an option their).

Also notice that this offer is being proposeed by Kody, HongHu may have been sucessfull in having him re-enter Hive planning. If so the Hive could become a powerhouse once more and we must be more warry that they dont run away with the game.

[Drogue]

True. If we can steal from PEACE, we have no need of trading with the Hive. However we can trade for Env Econ or Eco Eng. Both of those are worthy of Adap Econ IMHO. Or I could politely point out that we want the PEG, and so cannot sign an agreement saying we won't build it.

[Maniac]

I agree with Impaler we shouldn't trade AdapEcon with the Hive or PUT if we don't need to: if PEACE really has Gene Splicing.

If so, what about the following order to steal techs from PEACE if everything goes according to plan?:
1> MY 2150: Gene Splicing. This gives us the prerequisite for SFF.
2> MY 2151: Ethical Calculus. This finishes our current research. We can now switch to SFF if I correctly understand Minute Mirage's Excel program (screenshot).
3> MY 2152: Adaptive Economics. We can now trade with the Hive.

Oh yeah, PEACE is apparently researching NonlMath. This makes it even more important that we have an fast as possible Blitzkrieg! If possible, we should also try to keep PEACE's energy reserves under 100 credits, so they can't buy NonlMath from the AIs. Similarly we should try to keep PUT as a friend, so they won't buy NonlMath from the AIs in PEACE's place.

[Impaler[WrG]]

The AI's are very beligerant, I doupt they would sell to anyone else, we arn't even running Democracy and their both Seething at us. Agree we need to keep their Credits low though, no point in taking a chance and it also stops them from stealing our units or Mind Controling bases.

I dont think we should trade Adaptive Economics untill we have the SP in the bag, after that we might just gift the tec to the Hive for reconsiliation. They cant realy complain about that as they never would have had ANY thing without us. I think we can get Eco Eng by prototype trading with them. And I dont belive they have Env Eco yet (likly their next project) so I think its aleast 8 turns before their getting that.

Kody has posted some info on PEACE in the CC/HIVE forum. Points out some flaws in their playing (bad ones too). Their even more incompetent then we suspected. Kody says he is trying to make a map for us, should we tell him we already did that and not to waste his time. If he dose complete this map and give it too us they will likly percive that we are in their dept (and want that dept back in future trades). On the other hand we reveal ourselves to be a bit more cunning then they though we were. I recomend we tell him, I would hate for him to waste all this time on something we have already done. Anyways we will have no more need of Hive information after 2150.

[Impaler[WrG]]

Kody has mapped the Planet

Whial talking with Kody I told him we knew of the Hives was in the North next to the Drones, he asked how and I told him by click in the dark and logical deduction. He responded that he though this was illegal. I responed that Googlie had not made any objections.

He took this to mean that this was legal in the game, BUT he aparently knows of a more advanced tecnique that can give the base name too. He has now used this tecnicque to assemble a list of all the bases on the planet (presumably ours too) and has Posted the Name/Cordinates of all PEACE, UNI, Beliver and Angel base as a "gift" to us on the Hive/CC forum.

I regret having told him about the click in the dark usage, I assumed he was fully aware of it (its Kody after all!) so I didn't feel I was revealing anything vital. But he may now think we are in the Hives Dept. He mentioned the fact that the Hive has given many "gifts" to the Cycon and have not recived anything in return (even a promise). He also sounded very suspicius of us even saying at one point "were not shure your working with another faction" so beware Kody mistrusts us and may be a Paranoid mad man.

But we now have another issue. Should we tell the Hive, "we already knew that, and had a map weeks ago" or "oh good gosh Kody! Thanks so much!". Both options are risky. If we reveal we alraedy knew PEACE bases then we show ourselves to be more clever and resorcefull then I think Kody predicts, and we show that we concealed this fact, he may also think we are lieing to get out of our Dept to them (very likly considering his distrust). On the other hand accepting the information will create the perception that we are infact greatly indepted to the Hive and they may feel they deserve some of the spoils of our War.

I have posted a response saying that "I dont know if THAT tecnique is legal, it should have been confirmed with Googlie. I have made no comment conserning "thanks" for the data or hinting that we already knew it. Again let me say I am sorry for even getting him started on this whole line of inquiry as Kody has a mind like a steel trap. I will also send Googlie a PM about the issue. If Googlie says the tecnique is illegal then we may be let off the hook.

[Maniac]

I would tell them we already have a PEACE map and all base coordinates, but then say, if they are interested, that we could compare maps to check if their data matches with ours. That way it sounds like we're doing them a favour instead of the other way around.

Anyway, weird how he got all those base coordinates AND their names. This, together by his questional ability to effect B-drones, strengthens my intention never to play a PBEM game with Kody in it.

Edit:

From HongHu in the Voyforum, an official proposal:

1) Gene Splicing trade for Adaptive Economics
2) Eco Eng trade for design of an impact marine and a cruiser, the units will be returned only the design will be retained.
3) CC gives Hive list of techs that it obtained and is obtaining
4) Hive gives CC PEACE infiltration data
5) Hive open to any other trade / coorperation proposals by CC

1) If PEACE has Gene Splicing, we'd better ask EcoEng in return. Or not trade it at all if along with Impaler a majority of cyborgs is in favour of going for the PEG. We'd have to poll such a decision.

2) Such a deal would be relatively uneven IMHO. We will get one tech - EcoEng - the normal way. By lending them those two units they will practically speaking obtain two techs: NonlMath and Doc:Ini. Other benefit for the Hive is that their tech costs will be two techs lower than it should be. And they won't have to miss part of their army for quite a few turns.

3) IMHO we should in return ask for clarity on their tech trading relation with the Drones. Will we propose a pact to the Hive btw in our turn MY 2150? Then this point will become meaningless as we'll have access to each other's F2 screen anyway.

4) This point has become meaningless as well in the meanwhile.

[Drogue]

Have PMed HongHu, telling her of plans, and my opinion on events after, as well as about tech trades:

Greetings Ambassador HongHu,

I am sorry for the delay in this information. CyCon burocracy and debate about the war has stopped me telling you this sooner, but I am finally authorised to give you this information You have asked about our plans re PEACE:
We are to attack earlier than expected, as we have brought it forward two years to 2150. We will hit Alexandria first, closely followed by Tripoli. This is to stop them probing Non Math from us, as they are building/have built probes in those bases. We expect to have both bases by the end of 2151, IIRC. I have no idea where from there, how far the war goes depends on if PEACE want peace after we take their techs and a couple of bases. We intend to destroy them eventually, but if they offer a good deal, we may let them live a little longer

We have a tech advantage re PEACE at the moment, so I don't see winning as a problem. We shouldn't have much difficultly IMHO. Therefore matters turn to what to do once PEACE has been neutralised. Overall, we wish to help you against PUT, in a joint attack, once we are both ready. We would like a few years of peace, if possible, between the two wars, to build up infrastructure again, but our overall plan is to join you against PEACE after that, if you wish to pursue that. Or we could take out the AIs. Either way, the faction is strongly for a victory, co-operative with the Hive, and if necessary, the Drones. However the big problem for that is that you said before that the Drones were not big on that idea. May I inquire as to what they feel, with regards to a 3 way victory? And if they are not for it, where does the Hive stand?

Another piece of good news is that I look like being the next Prime Function With that I can assure you of a pro-Hive policy, regarding foreign affairs. I am very strongly for a co-operative victory. I intend to carry out the ideas we have talked about with Jamski a while ago, as far as possible.

I hope this helps ease your trust of us. I can understand your problems, with us seemingly unwilling to give you tech details or sign a pact. However we have now sorted out our war fears, which has been the only source of these hesitations. And thus I can offer a strong pact in 2150, the year we attack PEACE. We can then discuss what to do with regards to getting a perma-pact, and a co-operative victory, depending on the Drones position. The CyCon is strongly for a co-op victory with the Hive, however we can do it

As for tech trades, we are aiming for Fusion Power, as a long-term goal. Other than that we are looking at any trades for techs that we can't steal from PEACE. Adapt Econ is up for trade, but at the moment, we would not be able to agree not to build the PEG, since we have had plans for that for quite a while. We are hoping to take advantage of the rich sea energy to help us out-tech PUT, and we need all the help we can get for that. We are of course willing to trade techs, whether for other techs, ec, or units, with the Hive. However IIRC we have designs on the PEG, and so would not be able to agree not to build it.

If there is anything more you wish to know, please do not hesitate to contact myself.

Yours,
- Drogue, External Affairs Function of the Cybernetic Conciousness

We have also found out that the Hive has not infiltrated PUT, and that PEACE are not in a position to mount a counter-attack. They have crawlers in bases, and are researching Non Math, as we will find out next turn, when we Pact with Hive. This is subject to a poll (which I am about to post) but has been agreed by Impaler and Maniac so far, so will almost certainly get a majority.

Any comments? HongHu knows the last bit, about the future, is my personal opinion, and is not binding. If the war changes things, we will change this, as I have said to her before. We can't plan anything in depth for after the war, but overall proposals are good to discuss.