PEACE diplomatic exchanges

[Maniac]

Thanks for the comment.
Seeing you agree, I'm sending the PM above.

[Maniac]

Expected response. I told you guys I might tick of Flubber... Hopefully Flubber doesn't tell al these things I say to all the PEACE people.

RE: Latest - again informal - note
Since we are just talking personal opinion I will be very forthright . . .

I am VERY disappointed/ somewhat ticked that fairness does not matter to you. If you are not willing to make a deal that even tries to be fair, I fear that no deal will be had. [Comment from Maniac: In that case: Angels here we come!]

. . this can be a LONG game and you don't seem to care about fostering a good relationship at all (you know the type of relationship where we might lend you a ship to interdict AI invaders etc). [Comment from Maniac: you know the type of relationship where you don't lie to each other about where you get techs or where you don't try to pretend you haven't met other factions yet.] If you would even try to meet me halfway we could probably help each other to great success but if you make no attempt to try to be fair, then I guess that means there is absolutely no consideration being given to us in an attempt to work together.

In our dealings, we have been looking for ANY sign that you folks wish to be good allies to us. We felt we had been nice to you when we tossed in 20 ec on the first tech deal -- it unbalanced the deal but we did it to make friends . . . The ind auto deal was also in your favor given that we have not been paid for it yet and now you seek yet another deal in your favor. ALL we are asking is ONE fair deal. [Comment from Maniac: They lie to us on how they got IndBase, they still get 40 credits extra and then they call the IndAut deal in our favour.]


LAST PITCH

The other way to think about this cost is that giving us a tech costs you nothing and bumps us both up the tech tree where more trades are possible. We have the ability to gain other techs that you do not have yet-- some that you would definitely want ( how about we could give you ethical calc to allow you to jump to Genesplicing and return it-- these are the possibilities) .. . playing fair now means a better relationship and more deals down the road. Going cutthroat on this deal means you can expect a similar stance from us in the future. [Well duh! Why didn't you act to this knowledge in the IndAut deal?]

. . . paying energy credits means you no longer have these energy credits or the rushed facility/unit they will bring. If we don't make this deal with you, you still owe us a tech and if that ends up being HEC or even ecological engineering , it would not upset me in the least. Whether we trade you doc flex or not, we get your next tech . . .

AS for the other tech you have available for immediate trade, we don't really want them!! I could have traded for either app pys and/or biogentics at any time for pittances. BUT, If we wanted them I would have tried to trade with you for them, again in the interests of sharing benefits with a supposed ally and friend.

You asked the basis of the military threat and its essentially AI close to us with doc flex. Weapons not armour is the best way to go with ships and seabases and we just want to have some protection.


Officially-- I will only post your requirement that any deal involve doc flex now ( or we are back to the energy which I see is now at 90 energy) and see what the faction decides . . . If I posted your fairness comment, I think that would kill this deal. I will also check whether HEC makes people happy. There may still be a deal here . . .

Personally I am totally frustrated by this negotiation . . . I have played maybe 40 PBEMS and congratulations, you are the most difficult negotiator I have faced [I learned it from the best.]

Btw, what am I supposed to answer to this PM?? Flubber takes the moral high ground, saying he has been trying to be a good ally etcetera. But if I tell him our side of the story, that they can be accused of the same things they are accusing us of, relations are going to deteriorate even more.

[Nubclear]

Relations between CyCon and PEACE are gone. I think that much is apparent.

[Maniac]

Hi Flubber,

I am VERY disappointed/ somewhat ticked that fairness does not matter to you. If you are not willing to make a deal that even tries to be fair, I fear that no deal will be had.

That may not have been the best comment I ever made. I simply wanted to indicate that, since we can buy from three parties, it's normal the price for us should decrease, even though - if one is not using market logic - this could be regarded as unfair.

. . this can be a LONG game and you don't seem to care about fostering a good relationship at all

In our dealings, we have been looking for ANY sign that you folks wish to be good allies to us.

but we did it to make friends . . .

I'm glad to hear you say you want to be friends. We of the Consciousness certainly want that too!!!!!! It's just that, after you refused to trade DocFlex in our first deal and especially after you asked three techs and 100 ec in the second deal, several cyborgs of the Consciousness got the feeling that it was a majority of PEACE that wasn't interesting in fostering a good relationship, bur rather in "going cutthroat".

(you know the type of relationship where we might lend you a ship to interdict AI invaders etc).

Do you think we might face an AI invasion soon? Anyway, be assured that if you face an AI invasion that I - if I would be External Affairs Function at that time - will plead before the Collective to send assistance!

We felt we had been nice to you when we tossed in 20 ec on the first tech deal -- it unbalanced the deal

Please also consider our point of view. We gave you PlaNets and the ability to build probe foils. But you were unwilling to give us DocFlex and thus the same ability to build probe foils. We felt the deal was unfair thus asked 20 ec compensation.

The ind auto deal was also in your favor given that we have not been paid for it yet

But you did get 40 credits more for it. This was considered unfair at the moment, though upon looking back, it is good compensation for the time you have to wait to get a second tech back.

now you seek yet another deal in your favor.

As I have explained above, from the CyCon point of view the previous two deals are considered unfair to us, just like you find they are unfair to you.

But I would suggest we stop repeating the old arguments. It isn't going to help improve relations, rather the opposite.

The other way to think about this cost is that giving us a tech costs you nothing and bumps us both up the tech tree where more trades are possible. . . . paying energy credits means you no longer have these energy credits or the rushed facility/unit they will bring.

I agree with your analysis. I definitely prefer exchanging techs over paying credits, but apparently a majority of PEACE seems unwilling to trade DocFlex right now.

Personally I am totally frustrated by this negotiation . . . I have played maybe 40 PBEMS and congratulations, you are the most difficult negotiator I have faced

Actually I was thinking the same thing about PEACE negotiators.

If we take cash for doc flex, will you continue down the HEC road to pay us back from the prior deal ?

I've just created a poll to ask that exact question. Personally I am inclined to say yes if that will help the prosperity of PEACE and the success of this deal.

Greetings,

Maniac

[Maniac]

Since the PEACE are so insisting on getting paid right away, how about the following idea? They give us DocFlex right now, we lend them 75 or 80 credits right now. When we research HEC in a few years, we give them HEC and they give us our 75-80 credits back. AFAIK we only need to hurry two formers in the next few years, so there's no urgent need for the 75-80 credits.

[Phenix]

seems like a nice proposal, we use the EC's kinda as a mortage

[Maniac]

PMs are flooding in and out. Here are the two last official messages:

Hi Flubber,

I wanted to notify you that - in case you were still doubting that - I have confirmed we can buy DocFlex from the AI this turn.

But that is not the main reason for my communiqué. Since many PEACE members attach great importance to getting paid immediately, I was thinking of the following arrangement: We loan you / pay you in mortgage 75 credits this turn. You give us DocFlex in return this turn. In six year, we will probably research High Energy Chemistry. We then give you HEC, and in return you give us our 75 credits back. The end result is the same, but you have been paid immediately for the trade, which IMHO increases the fairness of this deal, and proves our good will.

I hope you will respond in the next 36 hours whether you want to trade or not, as our turn is waiting for us to be played.

In response to your previous PM:

AS for intelligence . . . if we can get over our mutual pigheadedness and start acting like allies, sharing of intelligence free of charge would be something I would see as normal and natural.

If you want to know something from our intelligence services, just ask. AFAIK we have nothing to hide.

Greetings,

Maniac

Response from Flubber:

Re: Umpteenth Official note plus one
In this loan/loan deal, I presume you would still owe us the tech from the ind auto deal ?? If so I will mention it as an additiional part of our poll.

I have a poll going on you latest offer. Selling to you outright for 90 ec ( your highest offer IIRC) is in a slight lead as long as you get HEC to us ( or nonlinear . . . we can dream) at the completion of your current research . .. There is a feeling that we want to get paid up for old deals and start fresh

I think it is the old deal that is still coloring everyone's feeling and the sooner we get paid for that the better.

I had the poll set to go for 2 days ( did not know the turn was with you) but I will get an answer to you ASAP. Making some sort of deal is leading over telling you to go away so I think its pretty clear we would be sending you Doc flex on our next turn

[Googlie]

I wanted to notify you that - in case you were still doubting that - I have confirmed we can buy DocFlex from the AI this turn.

I assume that the current turn has been opened, and you have contacted Roze or Miriam and been offered DocFlex for 100 ec's, and are holding it saved at that point pending the PEACE reply?

Or has a parallel (or old) turn been played with the AI being contacted to elicit this information?

I trust the former is the case

G.

[Maniac]

I opened the current turn and contacted the Angels. I asked to exchange technologies and they offered DocFlex. Because, as far as I know (Is that possible???), you cannot save in the middle of negotiations, I had to refuse their offer. After that I saved. Probably PEACE will sell, if not the Believers will want to sell as well, or I can contact the Angels again, so hopefully my refusal won't be a problem.

But personally I think the playing-ahead rules for contacting AIs should be relaxed. When negotiating with humans you can ask tentative questions and switch between several different human negotiations at once. With the AI that isn't possible. AFAIK you can't ask what they're willing to offer, say "I'll get back to you in a minute." and contact another faction in the meanwhile, while that would be very realistic. So personally I would prefer to allow contacting AIs on parallel (not old) turns. (Also because you can't control this "cheat" and because one ACDG member has already admitted to me he has done it.)

***

Oh yes, my latest PM:

Hi Flubber,

Of course we still owe you the tech of IndAut!

If in the next 12 hours you haven't made a decision yet, is it ok if I offer 75 credits in the diplobox? You would then offer DocFlex and accept the deal, so we would get DocFlex in MY 2138. Depending on whether you choose the tech or the cash, we can then give you 15 more credits the next turn if necessary.

Greetings,

Maniac

[Googlie]

[Maniac]

Thanks.

[Phenix]

Good work there Maniac seems the deal is finally getting round

[Drogue]

I second that, good work Maniac I think there is more to be gained, certainly in terms of fun, from attacking PEACE somepoint soon. If it's HEC for Doc Flex, then do it, but I'd rather a non-military tech. Non Math isn't on the table at all. IIRC, thats the situation? Sounds good to me, though I'd prefer the 90Ec, then we can kick the **** out of them

[Maniac]

Mailed to me directly by Hercules:

Greetings Prime Function Mani -Alpha -3.

Ambassador Flubber has asked me to contact you due his being off line for the next 8 hours.

In fact it was because of his work internet access having gone awol that we had a small breakdown in communications. First I was going to be absent for 36 hours approx so I asked for views and comments by 13.00 deadline on Friday 26th so that I could play the turn, otherwise it would be delayed for that 36 hr period of time.

I received some feedback from fellow pirates on moves and builds but nothing from Flubber.

We had initiated a poll earlier on the choices including a straight ecs for tech deal and the tech for tech deal. It was fairly even, at the time. However before the poll was closed Flubber indicated in the thread that you had been in contact re a new 75ec offer/loan deal.

If his connection had not failed, no doubt he would have elaborated on the specifics but as it was it created a degree of uncertainty as to what had been concluded. Personally I thought Flubber was hammering out a deal in the background.

This combination of factors meant I was unsure what the offer was. and I also ran out of time. As you know well I usually am prepared to delay a little, even if it does annoy the Hive and others.

So my apologies if this delay has caused further confusion.

Also I would not be contacting you directly if not for Ambassador Flubbers suggestion I contact due to his present unavailability.

What I can say is the Doc:Flex is here sitting ready to go to you this turn. We just need to finalise agreement. Ambassador Flubber mentioned that the 75 ecs were for us to make use off, until HEC was delivered and then would be returned to you. Is that a correct understanding.

Cap'n Hercules

Very odd... Despite being online several times the last few days, only now they start communicating again, when the turn is again in our camp. My conviction is growing that they are only trying to prevent us from getting DocFlex in the near future. So I would propose that we still buy DocFlex from the Angels.
Is it ok if I just send a message back saying:

Hi Captain Hercules,

Due to your silence of the last few days we assumed the deal was off. I'm afraid we have already bought DocFlex from the AI.

Greetings,

Mani Alpha-3
External Affairs Function of the Cybernetic Consciousness

[Phenix]

Though their explication is a bit weird, it seems unlikely to me that Peace would go through this trouble just to stall us 1 more turn from getting Doc:Flex.

IMHO I would try to trade for one more turn. If they ARE trying a stalling manoevre , they'll want to take more time and we can trade with the AI next turn.

Let's give Peace one last chance