PEACE diplomatic exchanges

[Nubclear]

You are more powerful than he, yet you are his slave.

Ironic, isn't it?

[Corellion]

Merely because they have the ability to properly displace water... I think we should know that by now.

[Maniac]

The latest message:

Thanks for the messge-- I will incorporate your arguments into my attempts to make a deal. It does appear that energy only is the only option.

Other points

1. vagueness in the ind auto deal was due to it being negotiated by others-- I always like to nail things down ( occupational hazard I guess) and all future dealing will be with me

2. You MIGHT be able to buy it from the AI-- they can be reluctant to give up tech sometimes . . . Researching it yourself is the worst option as we both know.

3. I can see your arguments against tech and credits in this case-- it was just the way the last message was eordrd, it seemed that you would not pay credits plus tech for a tech EVER. That seemed odd and even unfriendly since we gave you credits earlier in an immediate tech for tech deal. we didn't think that deal was equal but we gave a little extra because we hoped to forge a strong friendship.

I'll be in touch

Flub

[Phenix]

I think that the problem is not Flubber, he seems co-operative enough.

It's maybe the rest (or some) of the Peace faction who aren't willing to trade on a tech-tech basis with no EC's because of
1-we've granted them advantageous deals in the past and they feel they will get them again
and/or 2- they feel like they would be losing a lot when they gave us a tech while we still owed them one.

Maybe the straight energy-tech deal will prove satisfying ... otherwise I fear for our future relations

[Nubclear]

And I fear for the Pirates

[Maniac]

Actually we're below them on the powergraph. They have a higher mineral and energy production. We have missed the SPs the HGP and PTS. We have more reasons to be afraid.

[Nubclear]

It's not how powerful you are that matters.....

[Maniac]

PM from Flubber. I've told him I'll await reactions of other cyborgs:

Re: DocFlex negotiations

Honored maniac


There seems to be a greater willingness to trade tech for future tech than I thought, particularly if we can get a tech back pretty quick. AS I understand it, you were willing to accept the mortgage idea in that you not trade on doc flex until we were fully paid it---

So heres the deal I think you were willing to accept . ..

-- We trade you doc flex in return for a future tech to be paid

-- you must switch to a level 2 tech of our choice and send it back to us ( this complete the old deal essentially)

-- you owe us a tech ( level 2 or up) and must make best efforts to return it to us and cannot trade doc flex until this second tech is paid.


Do I have this deal straight? Was this the deal that was acceptable to you.

Flub

Some observations:

you must switch to a level 2 tech of our choice

Of their choice? So we wouldn't have a say in it?

you owe us a tech ( level 2 or up)

So if we would eg research the for them very valuable level 3 tech Gene Splicing after EthCalc, we wouldn't be able to request a small amount of credits to compensate the higher value of this technology?

[Corellion]

We do not switch to a level 2 tech of their choice... we switch to Ethical Calculus... that's what we agreed upon.

And no, we won't give them 'a future tech'. We will give them 'gene splicing' once we research it, or 'Doctrine: Initiative' once we research it, or 'Intellectual Integrity' once we research it.

[Maniac]

My response to the PM mentioned above:

Hi Flubber,

Well that's a pleasant surprise. I'll await some reactions of other cyborgs before giving an official reaction.

Maniac

Flubber:

Maniac

Don't get me wrong here-- I don't have a final agreement from our side but people do seem concerned about good relations and they like the idea of tech more than money apparently.

I have not checked operations for some time . . .. you are still a few turns before discovery . . . right ??

Me:

Hi Flubber,

I understand.
I checked and apparently we're still seven years away from research. So we have plenty of time. Though of course personally I would prefer to get the tech sooner than later.

Btw, I have a two personal & informal questions to help clarify this proposal.

you must switch to a level 2 tech of our choice

Does that mean PEACE would have the full right to decide our next tech research, instead of that it would be decided in consensus?

you owe us a tech ( level 2 or up)

While personally I don't have any problem with giving you most level 2 or 3 techs in exchange for DocFlex, I do give higher importance to Intellectual Integrity and especially Gene Splicing. I was wondering, if after researching eg EthCalc we would switch research to Gene Splicing and not some other level 2 tech, would you demand Gene Splicing right away, or would you be willing to pay an - of course minor- amount of credits to compensate the (IMHO) higher value of Gene Splicing?
This is merely a personal and informal question. I don't know what the others' opinion about Gene Splicing is.

Greetings,

Maniac

Flubber:

Good questions

-- asking for extra credits would be pushing it BIG TIME IMHO since we will have to wait a number of turns to get a tech back anyway-- you want a tech AND credits to give a tech perhaps 10-20 years later -- YOU HAVE TO BE KIDDING!! Under the scenario I outlined you choose what to research ( from among ANYTHING we do not have), after giving us back one tech ( which we indicate) -- we would be delighted if it were GS but we live with it if its something else. Would you agree to pay US if it were poly soft ??? I won't even raise this in our forums because it would kill the possibility of a deal, as it follows so closely on your " not a microcredit" position when we asked for compensation for the fact that we won't get a tech back for what seems like forever.


--- I thought your own messages have indicated repeatedly that we could choose the level 2 tech we wanted back from you immediately and you would get it. I can look for the quotes again but that was definitely the sense I got -- I don't see that we are directing research so much as saying what we are trading for-- I did not think this would be contentious . . .

Third-- your preference to have doc flex "sooner rather than later" is evidence that acquiring a tech sooner is more valuable than later, a concept you have never acknowledged. If you are 7 years from doc flex, that means you are currently 7 years from returning a tech in completion of the Ind auto deal and perhaps 17-20 years from discovering your next tech by research.

Finally-- I thought what I set out was simply a restatement of what you had earlier indicated as being willing to accept. If thats not the case let me know what you would accept . Getting this deal approved on our side is tenuous as it is. WE have one player wishing to tell you to " stuff it", a couple of pro-traders and a couple on the fence it seems.

I look forward to your official position

Then I tried to send back the following, but his PM box is full.

Hi Flubber,

-- asking for extra credits would be pushing it BIG TIME IMHO since...

[confidential]Good points. Let's forget I even mentioned it.[/confidential]

--- I thought your own messages have indicated repeatedly that...

You are correct if you mean PEACE can choose unilaterally the tech it wants back in exchange for DocFlex. You are incorrect if you mean PEACE can choose unilaterally the tech it wants back to complete the IndAut deal. From your sentence "this complete the old deal essentially" I got the impression you were referring to the old deal. But the tech to complete the IndAut deal should be agreed upon by consensus, and I thought we had agreed on Ethical Calculus?

Third-- your preference to have doc flex "sooner rather than later"...

I acknowledge the concepts bears weight in a "fair trade". It doesn't effect the price we're willing to pay in this "low demand - high supply" situation. It's PEACE's free choice to or not to accept the fact that we won't be able to repay DocFlex immediately.

Finally-- I thought what I set out was simply a restatement of what you had earlier indicated as being willing to accept. If thats not the case let me know what you would accept .

To avoid surprises, could you please tell us the tech - or give a list of possible techs - you would accept in return? Or perhaps - if that would be shorter - a list of techs you wouldn't accept?

(New text...) Some time after writing the above, I was wondering what you would think about the following: Would you agree to the proposal that if the Consciousness started researching a tech that you indicated you'd want, that you will not trade for that tech with another faction, even if they offered it to you at a good price? This proposal would be to prevent that we would be in debt towards you for eternity.

Greetings,

Maniac

[Phenix]

Seems nice to me, glad they are finally gaining reason
hope we can stick to this deal and get it through

my opinion on the future tech we'll owe them:
I don't care trading them Gene Sp. (or some other higher lvl tech) for Doc:Flex.
Like Flubber says they have to wait some time, which IMHO is enough compensation for the lvl2/lvl3 difference in tech.

[Maniac]

I liked Flubber's last proposal, but now he seems to be worsening the deal for us again:

Latest personal note

We don't want you in debt to us for eternity either
. We want to get repaid sometime soon--


Lets think of the deal the opposite way from how I have portrayed it earlier -- you give us our " chosen tech" for doc flex immediately ( through switching research)-- Thats fair -- tech for tech and immediate. Period . end of this deal . . . .

The ind auto deal is still pending but it is as it was . . . you owe us a non level 1 tech and return it when you can, making good faith efforts to do so .

Ten or 15 years ago we wanted eth calc most but now, we are getting nervous militarily and are thinking that we want a weapons tech like non linear or HEC as soon as possible-- THis should be a good choice for you as well, considering you have AI in close proximity.

THose 2 techs could serve as a short list of sorts with non linear as first choice. If you have other techs you prefer, say so, but eth calc will not work for us now.

I think I could sway the naysayers in our faction by saying doc flex for nonlinear straight up, with your Nonlin being returned to us the turn after we send doc flex- this ends arguments about time value of techs since the return on this trade will be immediate.

The "owed tech " issue would still be there but I can portray that as an issue from a previous deal that should not impact on the "tech for tech" fairness of this deal.


Ther's a proposal. By altering how I present it, I should easily have the votes to swing this. Its essentially a simple tech for tech and ignoring the ind auto deal except for you to confirm the tech is owed and you will try to get a tech to us "soon".

That owed tech may be an issue between us and reflects the problems when people negotiate an uncertainty. Our people are unhappy they have not been paid yet while your people are unhappy to have a continuing debt. Bottom line is you will pay us back when you get a tech (non level 1) we don't have. If that tech happens to be MMI well all the better. but it will probably end up being something much less glamourous. My personal feeling is that we would accept pretty much any tech rather than wait and wait to get paid for 30 or 50 years

Flub

I'm wondering why they suddenly want a weapons tech. Do they fear us with DocFlex? Do they plan to attack us because we are, in their opinion probably, being so annoying in diplomacy? Or are they being treated military by the Angels or Hive?
Personally I wouldn't mind that much switching to HEC, as that is on the road to D:AP, but I don't really feel much for NonlMath right now... What do others think??

And if I understand them right, they would only give us DocFlex when we could give them NonlMath the turn after. That would mean we would only get DocFlex in six years! If that would be the case, I would actually prefer to buy DocFlex from the AI right now, as I was planning to ask Corellion if he wanted to switch production in Pi Square (which completes its current crawler production next year) to a gun foil or probe skimship, right after we got DocFlex.

[Maniac]

No comments?

If nothing has suggestions, I'll tell them that we won't be willing to switch to NonlMath, but we would to HEC. I would also tell them (in friendlier words) that unless they're willing to give DocFlex pre-accepted this turn, that the deal's off and that we will buy DocFlex from the AI as soon as we get our turn.

If you do not agree with this, please speak up before I screw the entire deal!

[Maniac]

My PM from yesterday:

Hi Flubber,

Though a majority of cyborgs would probably have agreed with your previous proposal, I don't know what the opinion of the Collective about this would be. I'll need to consult first before I can give you an answer...

Greetings,

Maniac

His response I read today:

Huh??

my initial proposal was always we get a tech of our choice right away and I initially had us getting the choice of your next couple after that-- I have now made it a very simple tech for tech deal and we deal with outstanding ind auto issues separately

What could be fairer??

There are still no comments. If I don't get any feedback, I'll send the following PM in a few hours...

***

Hi Flubber,

Our private forum seems to have become rather inactive the last two days, so I haven't received many comments yet - only one - on your latest PM. But I'll give you a reaction anyway, so negotiations don't get stalled. Please keep in mind what follows is purely my personal opinion. It won't become official policy until some 36 hours after the CyCon received their turn, and the official turn players haven't shown up yet. If I get several reactions of other cyborgs in the meantime, this PM might become invalid.

What could be fairer??

Nothing. But for me in this deal fairness is not an issue.

My personal reaction to your previous PM to me would be:

1> I agree of representing the deal the opposite way. First we finish the DocFlex deal. IndAut is saved for a later - and hopefully close - date.
2> Personally I wouldn't mind switching to HEC as our next tech. I have some doubts about NonlMath though, as that isn't at all in our/my near future research wishes. Perhaps if you could disclose the nature of the military threat you face I would be more willing to help you out and switch to NonlMath...
3> It seems we have had a misunderstanding. For me you giving us DocFlex pre-accepted your next turn (so the CyCon would get the tech in MY 2138) is a conditio sine qua non for this deal. If you only would want to give us DocFlex when we could immediately repay you a tech, I would rather prefer to trade with the AI next turn. Again, I would be willing to pay you a sum of credits right away in return for DocFlex, but if you want a tech, you'll have to wait, unless you're satisfied with one of the techs we already have. Think of it this way: if you insist on getting paid right away, we can only offer you some 80 or 90 credits. If you are willing to wait six years, you will get a tech worth around 300 labs at the moment. The payment more than triples...

Again, please keep in mind that's my personal opinion. I'm more or less the most hardliner cyborg when it comes to negotiating with PEACE, so the opinion of the Collective might be different.

Greetings,

Maniac

[Phenix]

OK, I agree with switching to HEC after getting Doc:Flex.

But like you say, we need Doc:Flex asap, so if they don't want to give it with a tech coming back about 5 turns later, we seriously have to consider trading with the AI