PEACE diplomatic exchanges

[Drogue]

Maniac: No there hasn't so far. When there is I will post. Since we have agreed to trade, we will lose much face, and probably the pact, if we decide not too. However JDM did offer Ec, so I will say to him that I presumed that offer was still there when we accepted, as I was unaware of what Flubber has said. If you ignore the conversation with Flubber, as it was unofficial, since JDM and myself were already discussing terms, then we can get money. I wouldn't expect too much money at this stage, but if we can get 30 Ec, we will be good IMHO. However backing out completely would be awful at the moment.

1 think that did strike me... if they're choosing now, but will get the tech in 2 turns, that's a hell of a research rate? Either that or they are losing research points. Therefore they may already have chosen what to research. But one thing I would say: A PEACE with probe foils who like us because we traded is a lot less dangerous than a PEACE who do not like us because we did not trade who get probe foils a little later. If they get Plan Nets and we haven't got a Pact, we need to build a probe in Pi Square.

[Maniac]

I just received this PM from Flubber:

I have no authorization to trade for applied physics at this time and there would be no hurry to do so in any event. I will bring its availability to the attention of our population however.

I don't see any logic in the request for extra cash-- the result of the deal is that we both get soc psych which we would otherwise not have. It just seems unfair that we should pay you so that we both get the same tech.

I know that I will presonally vote against any attempt to add energy credits to the deal. I want fair trade, not trade at any cost

From what I understood out of yesterday, they were busy researching InfoNets when we gave it to them. That's why they can switch right away and have another tech in two-three years.

Quoting johndmuller:

Anyways, we pirates must right away select a replacement tech for the Infonets you'all so graciously provided

[Maniac]

So, should I ignore the PM from Flubber? His blunt refusal to give us some extra ec ticked me off btw. I'm becoming less and less inclined to give them the valuable PlaNets (probes, Planned, VW...) in exchange for the mere ability to build SocPsych. That's a really uneven deal. From now on personally I would only trade PlaNets in exchange for Doc:Flex, and onl Biogen in exchange for SocPsych or IndBase. PlaNets<->SocPsych only in exchange for at least an extra 30 ec IMO.

They probably haven't opened the turn yet, so we won't be breaking an agreement when we change minds. That change of mind would only be because they refuse to make an even trade btw. Also I think the chances of signing a pact are very slim. Johndmuller might perhaps be in favour of one, but I can't imagine Flubber ever would.

[Drogue]

Maniac: Flubber has posted on Googlie's board, and I have replied. I understand their logic, that we actually just gain Soc Psy each. Does it take the same time to research a level 2 as a level 1 tech? I was thinking that maybe it would take them longer to get Plan Nets. I am for the trade, because as they said, all it means is that we both get Soc Psy. They will get Plan Nets anyway.

I have proposed a double trade to them on Googlie's board. Doc Flex for Plan Nets, and Soc Psy for Biogen. I will see what they say. A Pact would be good though, since they won't use Probe's on us with that. Moreover, when Herc gets back, I am sure relations will improve. Let us not fret too much. They will get Plan Nets soon anyway. I vote that we research Nonlinear Math, Doc Flex and then build a couple of impact foils. They don't even have laser, so we will either take a few bases, or ask for money not to Let us get impact though. I think this deteriation in relations means that we should think of military action. Playing the CyCon, I generally find that war actually helps them. They get techs from stealing ands the extra bases. We will grow very fast doing that, get high nuts and energy sea bases, and will be able to challenge a lot better. While we have the advantage having applied physics, I think we should get impact and use this advantage.

[Corellion]

I agree with Drogue... relations have gone down the tubes (thanks mostly to Flubber). Their insistance on getting Planetary Networks really makes me uneasy (especially given that we are such a research-intensive faction). I could only be more concerned if we were the University or were using Knowledge.

If they can agree to the double-trade, that will be very good, but otherwise let's keep it, and force them to research it themselves (afterall, they then cannot re-use those research points again, gaining a short time until they get their next tech).

Otherwise, let's switch to the more military route, going for Doc: Flex ASAP and getting Nonlinear Mathematics ASAP after that (or before, if it's not available).

BTW, should we alert them to the fact that their single-mindedness on this is really invoking suspicion on our parts? That could cause them to be a little more reasonable in their requests.

[Drogue]

I have an idea. I completely agree with Corellions idea. Much as tech trading is in our best interests, I am very wary of them. If only Herc were here, this would not have happened (Herc and I agree on just about everything) As it stands, if they refuse the double trade, let us beeline for Doc Flex and Non Math (indeed, even if they do trade, I propose we get Non Math) and get 1 or 2 impact foils in the waters, take a base, and then ask them for reparations

With regards to the last part, I think if we say to Flubber that we are suspicious they will decide not to trade. I think we should wait, and if we need to, I will PM JDM, as their leader, to say that we are unhappy at Flubber's inflexibility and not listening to us, and that we are suspicious. JDM has been decent through this, and if we want to make a comment without aleriting them to our 'plans' ( ) then I suggest a quiet word in his ear would suffice.

Anyone know when Herc gets back?

[Drogue]

Poll for Corellion and my idea with techs and units to threaten PEACE here.

[Drogue]

Have a PM from Flubber:

Sorry
there are strong feelings that we keep doc flex to ourselves for a little while until our relationship is clarified- also we have little interest in biogenetics since our seabases come with rec tanks already installed--

As for the equality of the techs, in this instance there is no inequality as I have stated many times-- If we don't do the trade we get plan nets next year-- If we do do the trade we get plan nets next year-- The only difference is that we both get social psych as well. the logic of making this trade is clear and is an advantage to us both

There was no intent to pressure you folks-- it just seemed that maniac was saying the deal was done and I wanted to be certain of that. My messages made it clear that I knew we are all subject to a democratic decision.

In any event, Johnd was instructed to choose plan nets as our tech choice so either way we get it ( next turn IIRC)-- so now there is some pressure in the sense that we need a decision from you-- either you trade us plan nets next turn or the window to do so wioll be over as we will have it-- In fact, the mechanics of the trade must be that it be gifted from you so that we may accept your gift prior to discovering it ourself, then switch to soc psych to make the discovery.

There is one deal available and only one deal at this time. the mechanics of how techs are discovered, means that we need your decision and your action before YOU play the next turn -- otherwise the opportunity is lost

The deal is exactly fair-- we both get soc psych and are otherwise both in exactly the same position as if we did not trade

Should I reply yes or no? Do we trust them enough? They will get it next turn either way, and Soc Psy is useful, so I'm tempted to swallow my pride. We both gain that way, and we gain equally. I'm also tempted to tell them to sod themselves. If they won't trade Doc Flex, we won't trade either. It's like cutting your nose to spite your face. I am unsure. If we choose the former, I strongly favour a pact and further trading. If the later, I strongly favour war. Which is it to be?

[Drogue]

I have replied with:

There are strong feelings that we keep doc flex to ourselves for a little while until our relationship is clarified

That is exactly the feeling among the CyCon with regards to Planetary Networks. With your unwillingness to trade or sign a pact, many feel scared. If we could sign a Pact to clarify our relationship, would that trade be possible?

The deal is exactly fair-- we both get soc psych and are otherwise both in exactly the same position as if we did not trade

While I agree it is beneficial to both, exactly fair is a strong term, and one that our factions seem to have different opinions on. If you would agree to a Pact, I think I might be able to get them to gift it to you. Otherwise, I think they will say it is too risky, as your intentions are unknown.

It is a last ditch attempt, promising nothing. If we get a Pact, I think it is beneficial, but obviously we need a poll to check. If we cannot, then we can poll, but I think we will say against it.

[Maniac]

I would tell them to sod it (though perhaps in more diplomatic wordings). I don't buy that story of "we'll get PlaNets anyway." As IIRC Corellion argued a while back, the same can be said about Doc:Flex. Btw, did you notice that the time of their discovery of PlaNets is constantly moving forwards? First it was three, then two, and now they'll get it next turn. I think they're just making up a story to pressure us into a hasty decision. It might just be possible they don't even have the option to research PlaNets.
Doctrine:Flexibility trade or no trade!

[Cedayon]

If the problem is lack of supporting votes, just count mine for whatever the Prime Function/Acting ambassador thinks is best, or just disregard my vote altogether as I really won't be around much.

[Drogue]

I have received more correspindance from Flubber. I am now far more for the deal. It is my belief that their intentions are good, and towards a Pact. That could help us topple the PUT I believe we will gain from this tech. We need Social Psych. If we want to go a builder route at the moment, which is probably best for the moment, as Maniac pointed out, we do not know where they are, then having Soc Psy helps our SP production, and means we can go for another tech.

Basically, I am for this trade. We can delay our turn, so I will post a poll. We will abide by the results of that. Please people, think of our tech, one of our main goals. It is logical, we gain as much as PEACE, and we help our relations. There is no downside but our pride. Pride is not something that should overrule logic.

[Maniac]

I will hold a snap poll to see if I can get authority to add 20 ec to the pot. Thats all I can bear to add.

Man they are really desperate after all apparently... At first they were unwilling to offer any energy credits. Anyway, my opinion is still the same (sorry Drogue...): for PlaNets we either get Doc:Flex, or SocPsych and 30 ec. Nothing less. I've had it with Flubber.

Seeing internal CyCon opinion stays divided, should we organize a poll? With what options?

[Drogue]

Really? Why? I do not see the reasoning for that position now? Distrust of PEACE? I have got a concession out of Flubber. Even without it we gain in so many ways, and I cannot see where we lose. I trust JDM and especially Herc not to be militaristic, and to be for friendship. Is there another reason to say no to the trade?

[Drogue]

Poll posted here BTW.