Combined diplomatic thread --Direction needed

[johndmuller]

Are you saying that they want the Doc:Flex now and will give us the HEC in 5 years or whenever (no deadline?), plus still owe us a tech and with nothing binding on them for that delivery either? That would be 10 or 15 years more float for the payoff on the IndAuto deal as well as the 5 plus years float they want on this one - that's well over 20 years of float (counting what they've already had). Surely they are not that intractable - or are they playing the Suicide Pact role over there.

If there is anything still on the table from them to make it less odious, please fill us in.

If that's it, I'm also P!$$ed off and leaning toward letting them get Doc:Flex however the &*$&# they can and cutting our losses to just the remainder of the float from the IndAuto. OTOH, being able to direct their research to anything, even HEC (rather than our suggestion of NonLinear), would be helpful in the global context, as you say they will otherwise (redundantly) research EhicalCalc, wasting the research points; unfortunately, we only collectively gain from avoiding redundancy, not we Pirates specifically. If they research EthicalCalc after getting Flex (whether from us or from the AI) and we have meanwhile decided to get the EthCalc from the PUT, then our IndAuto payback would be further postponed - In that case, I would be in favor of just stealing techs from them whenever possible for the rest of the game rather than attempting to work with them in the trade market.

I think you should probably start a poll or polls, setting forth whatever options you think are possible for trading and whatever alternative actions you see.

I'm not sure that I have all the details of the various trade possibilities with the other factions, but I think you said we can get AppPhys and Loyalty from the Hive and EthicalCalc from the PUT. Presumably we can get something useful from the Drones too. It is true, is it not, that the Borg do not have contact with any of the other human factions?

Just so we can figure the big picture, could you set out the possible deals with all the factions here in one post.

Presumably you can stall the Borg at least another of their turns, while we decide what to do. If they wish, are able and actually do make the deal with the AI before then, so be it, it will only be another insulting gesture and what's one more insulting gesture among such friends. Meanwhile, we can check with the other factions and/or figure out what we want to do with the Borg. Perhaps we could bribe Roze &/or Miriam to be their enemies, scotching their deals and also giving them something else to worry about.

We seem to be heading for a confrontation with the Borg, let's keep that in mind in our builds and plans; I was only half kidding in my post about splitting them up with the PUT.

[Flubber]

They have always accepted a mortgage on the tech until it is paid for . . . years no trade would probably be irrelevant given that they would take that long to meet anyone most likely anyway

[Hercules]

In the meantime at this point in time what are the PUT up to. The prospect of us obtaining Eth Calc may influence the Borg in some fashion.

[Flubber]

Johnd

all the possible trades are in the first post in this thread

The cycon are adamant that if we want a tech we will have to live with one later with no other compensation. They seem certain they can buy doc flex next turn and seem to not want ANY more stalling. I indicated that this form of tech trade is unfair but they seem not to care at all ( at least maniac doesn't). His position is that he can buy it cheap so we have no bargaining power. There seems to be no concern for future relations.

They are offering a tech now if we want one they already have but thats just app physics and biogen IIRC . . .and we should be able to pick those up cheap anytime or simply just bypass them.

I have been tempted to tell them to buzz off but I would rather get the ecs for ourselves than see them go to the AI-- I asked a point of clarification in that if we sold doc flex would they head immediately to HEC on the tech switch. That way we get energy credits and HEC in abouout 5 or 6 and then no longer have an indefinite obligation floating out there.

AS to general cycon relations, I find them impossible and have sent a preliminary unofficial message to the UNiversity inquiring if they would favor a pact. The idea is that if their ambassador has any interest, weoll our respective memberships . . . WE could start thinking about making them our foremost allies .

I think it remains marginally in our interest to do this deal-- Bottom line is that I believe they could most likely get flex from the AI-- BUT no favors for them ever-- strictly TOTAL self interest from now on-- IF we can screw them to the wall we do so

[Flubber]

Maniac indicates a favorable view to the ec for doc flex-- ( I would ask 90 since he said 80 or 90) with them choosing HEC as their next research target to pay us back from the prior deal


OUr options

1. tell them to bug off-- I have no leverage to force what they research to pay us back from the prior deal
2. Give doc flex now for HEC(in about 6 turns) and still have them owe us a tech
3. Accept ecs for doc flex and get HEC ( in about 6 turns)


The tone of the most recent maniac message was much more conciliatory although their position did not soften. At least he is trying to be diplomatic now-- His arguments have some merit

[Flubber]

UPDATE the university has approved doc flex for eth calc and we can trade at our convenience-- I leave it to the operations fols as to when that is-- we could delay a turn I guess but then I would feel I have to give a reason if we delayed further

[johndmuller]

Selling Doc:Flex to them for 90 and getting the HEC for the outstanding debt seems the best deal we can hope for without calling their bluff or otherwise telling them where to go. It also gets us even with them so that these outstanding deals are no longer a hostage for our good behavior with them. I don't know whether or not we need any embargo time here, but you could always try to stipulate that they still can't retrade until they get back to even, techwise. If you don't want to haggle over it (thinking it doesn't matter) or if they balk, then hopefully we can dispose of it to the other factions soon enough that we will not be undercut by them in any case.

[Hercules]

Do what they did to us: quote percent outcomes.

And poll options to arrive at those outcomes. Also the retrade restriction condition is a must.

At this moment I am inclined to call the bluff. Advise them if they refuse and they are unsuccessful with the AI we will not enter into future negotiations on Doc: Flex, they can discover it themselves It will cost them 100ecs if they succeed or lost years researching due to their unPACT like behaviour.

They know we have met the PUT and they will know we have met the Hive and presumably the Drones.

Indicate that because of our PACT relationship with them we are keen to trade with them FIRST (hinting our trading negotiations with others).

Re the PUT I'll aim for delivery 2138

[Makahlua]

Wait a minute. We -do- have leverage.....the Pact itself! You could tell them that we feel they are not living up to the spirit of our Pact, even while obeying it's letter, and that we feel their rather mercenary and undermining attitude is making us think seriously on wether this pact is such a good thing after all.

Too belligerent?

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Makahlua
Wait a minute. We -do- have leverage.....the Pact itself! You could tell them that we feel they are not living up to the spirit of our Pact, even while obeying it's letter, and that we feel their rather mercenary and undermining attitude is making us think seriously on wether this pact is such a good thing after all.

Too belligerent?

I have done that very type of thing. What they say back is that if we are friends to them, we

a) wouldn't mind giving them Doc flex now so they can get a navy going even if they can't pay a tech back for a few turns and

b) we should sell them doc flex for a little less than the AI would sell it

I have mentioned good relations and that we have felt hard done by in the previous trades. They indicate that they feel we won both those trades and they are determined not to pay any more than market price for doc flex ( ie what the AI will sell it for).

[FlameFlash]

I don't care, my thought is tell them that we will accept trading 90 ecs for Doc Flex on the turn that they discover and send us both the 90 ecs for Doc Flex and HEC (we don't have that, right?)

In that way everything would be equal, and justify it by saying that they get two turns in two turns and then their debt to us is paid off.

[FlameFlash]

Otherwise we need to threaten to start charging them for their lack of good faith in their tech trade agreement with us and start demanding reparations for it.

We need to get some Impact foils and infantry soon and fast, we may need to go to war with the AIs to really beef up our power and then tack out the cycon if they continue to mislead us and mistreat us.

[Hercules]

Ss you know, I asked for feedback by 13.00 on the 26th because I was going to be away for approx 36 hrs from that time. I checked the comms links box for all the factions. Nothing seemed finalised. From the Borg I had an negotiating position of 75ecs offered. However by the deadline I had no indication that any deals had been concluded. I played the turn.

In the meantime Maniac has PMed about noticing our (my) playing the turn.

I think myself or Flubber should explain those circumstances and also about a poll pending on the original offer: ie (a) 90ecs for tech or (b) tech for tech and that the new proposal regarding 75 ecs hadn't been widely circulated or discussed and we were in mid poll.

Ok I think we are ready to trade Doc: Flex and this can be advised to the other factions.

Regarding the Borg who still insist they can obtain it from the AI this turn without needing to trade with
us, we(I) need to explain the circumstances.

In the end what are we trading: 90ec, 75ecs and repay, or tech for tech? and one delayed.


As a result of all this confusion, Doc:Flex is not on its way to any faction this turn. Nor is Doc Mob. So I think we now need to agree timings and delivery to the factions. Btw most factions appear not to concerned, our only difficulty may be, I'll let You guess.

[johndmuller]

Originally posted by Hercules
...
As a result of all this confusion,... our only difficulty may be, I'll let You guess.

So you're confused, but you're gonna 'let us guess' . (My guess is the Borg, BTW; do I get a prize?)

How do you think we all get confused?

I think we need a well defined place to look for the latest word on the diplomacy, and/or more frequent diplomatic reports. I know that there is often nothing happening, but that is a piece of (sometimes missing) info as well.

As for me, I don't really like the Borg low-balling us on the amount of PoE's, but at least they didn't go all the way down to 70.

[Flubber]

WE lost internet access at work so I had no idea the turn had come around and was unable to respond.

The deals offered were pretty clear . . .

The 75 POE was offered

a) as the first part of 90 they were willing to spend on doc flex OR
b) to be loaned to us until they could repay us by completing HEC if we wnated a tech for flex

If we lose the deal, I take some responsibility since I was not online but at the same time, the poll results were available and the deal offered was pretty clear. I don't see any problem with the turn player looking at those things and completing the approved deal even in the ansence of my immediate feedback