The STEP High Garden

[Voltaire]

Maniac...

Besides freedom, people and corporations also need stability, and sometimes need to be protected against themselves. To ensure this, you have to take away part of their freedom.

To quote John Stuart Mill:

"The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not a sufficient warrant."

I see no justifiable reason that we need to interfere with the sovereignty of an individual if they are not harming society as a whole; the state is not means to be some all knowing parent looking out for its children and punishing them when they do as they are forbidden to. Let people have the maximum possible amount of freedom so long as they do not interfere with the rights of others they should be allowed to do as they please. We should not force people to do what is for their own good, if they choose to participate in activities which are harmful to themselves, that is their decisions, not one that the state should meddle in.

[Hercules]

I have to say there is too much off topic stuff here, interesting to the debaters though it may be. The success of Smac is that it could imagine a world split into 7 factions driven/ motivated by other considerations rather than the old earth divide between left and right. Marxism and Capitalism. Both of which were credible philosophies, in theory but massively damaging to their respective citizenry in practice, and to most of the rest of the world in between.

BTW As you know Drones are the unskilled, the unsuitable and disgruntled: they are the opposite of talent, specialists and workers who are skilled, suitable and happy. Drones are not equivalent of the proletariat and I think tend to be mistaken as such. Happily they can be trained at some stage or kept under control with Holotheatres and the like which also entertain and are enjoyed by workers , talents and specialists. Anyway here's me also straying

[GeneralTacticus]

It's about time somebody on the Left grasped that.

[Kirov]

Correct me if I'm wrong:

Drones resemble that what was called 'lumpenproletariat' rather than 'proletariat'.

'Lumpenproletariat' was despised by Marx and Engels (IIRC, it was Engels who developed this derogative name). Lumpenproletariat was considered as people without moral spine, too unpredictable to be considered as revolutionary force.

'Proletariat', provided that it's aware of his historical destination, is the driving force of revolution. Thus in SMAC Marx would rather work with workers than drones.

OTOH, it was anarchists who considered 'lumpenproletariat' (drones) as hope for anarchistic revolution, along with proletariat of course. Anarchists claimed that people in such great poverty, having nothing to lose, will fight to the end.
It is foundation of the one of many conflicts between marxists (esp Engels) and anarchists (esp Proudhon).

So, in SMAC, only the anarchistic vision of revolution can be brought to life.

Comments?

[Drogue]

I agree with what both Kirov and Herc say. Drones are not a good thing. However, they do still have reasons for rioting, and as such we should not discount them, but look at their needs, and, if possible build Rec Commons or Net Nodes for them. Though they may be "without moral spine" (A description one could apply to Morgan aswell, albeit in a different manner) that is no reason to discount them. We are a faction founded on democracy, whereby every person, be it drone, worker of talent, is equal.

[Pandemoniak]

As you know Drones are the unskilled, the unsuitable and disgruntled: they are the opposite of talent, specialists and workers who are skilled, suitable and happy. Drones are not equivalent of the proletariat and I think tend to be mistaken as such. Happily they can be trained at some stage or kept under control with Holotheatres and the like which also entertain and are enjoyed by workers , talents and specialists.

Drones are not the unskilled and the unsuitable, but they are disgruntled (if the systran translator is right). They are the untaught and the leftout. They werent born simply bad, they hadnt the chance to express themselves and are just left out !

All of you remember when we succeeded the human genome, and when we began to learn what and who we really are. This changement have taught so much to our people that many new talents appeared.
We must not forget that the drones are glad to see recreation commons and holographic theater, that makes them realize they are taken in account, and not forgotten.
Also, the holographic theater industry provides artistic jobs for lots of people, and Drones can "rehabilitate" and educate themselves and each other by learning the way of Art.
Films like "October", directed by Sergei E. Senstein, recently arrived from the University, provides them good art to think of, as well as other films such as "Citizen Tassadar", this excellent film that tells the story of this selfish press mogul who dies alone in his Xanadu, after a short and brilliant career.
All this art, cumulated with the Recreations Commons, provides to the Drones place to discuss and elaborate new artistic ideas. More over, if the director of Energy and Industry would be kind enough to allocate some credits in psychic facilities, we'll be able to soften this anger and to provide the Drones an excellent quality of life, health,education, and social rights so that can as well, elevate themselves to the "rank" of Talent.

As long as the Drones will be left out,
I will walk the Drones


Pandemoniak,
in For I have walked with the Drones
CCCP Press, Available for free at any local Party House.

[Kirov]

I wasn't writing what I do think about drones, I have only described marxist and anarchistic point of view, and this is only provided that drones are indeed the counterpart of 'lumpenproletariat'.

Personally I think that relatons between lumpenproletariat and proletariat are much more complex as it is easy to be a good and well-paid worker one day and an idle drone next day. Either workers or drones, they certainly need help to escape the trap of the 'inheritage of poverty'.

And I think that Rec Commons and Holo Theatres are as good for drones as MTV and soap operas in our world - they make people calm, not happy. It is simple brain-washing. A tragedy of SMAC is that the main ways to calm people down is either thru repression (POLICE) or making them dumb. The real thing that could help drones is... school. Isn't it that simple?

[Pandemoniak]

I think that Rec Commons and Holo Theatres are as good for drones as MTV and soap operas in our world - they make people calm, not happy.

Are you saying films like "October", "Lady Deirdre's Lover", "The Lady from the Hive" or the magnificent "Citizen Tassadar" are soaps ??? mad:
You forgot that without the Recreations Commons and the Holo Theater industry, the citizen David Leech would never had been able to direct his most famous "Freshwater Drive", starring Aki-Zeta-5 and Lady Deirdre herselves !
Thers not only soaps and "opium of the drones", theres also culture and creation.

------

I wasn't writing what I do think about drones, I have only described marxist and anarchistic point of view, and this is only provided that drones are indeed the counterpart of 'lumpenproletariat'.

No need to have an apologizing tone I consider myself the drones as the strongest part of the revolting forces. Maybe thats why Lucky keeps calling me "ananarchist dissident"

[Kirov]

I do see the difference between art and soap. But would you call such movies like "Morgan Pie" or "Night of the Mind Worms" a good art? Who benefits from these movies? Bloodshed, sex and silly humour - that is what THEY give us.



And I'm not surprised you consider drones as the only social class able to revolt. Workers in SMAC will never revolt, first they have to move to lower social classes. Obviuosly, BR is not a marxist...

[Pandemoniak]

But would you call such movies like "Morgan Pie" or "Night of the Mind Worms" a good art?

"Morgan Pie", certainly not ! This is just a whole bunch of crap about morganit consumerism where people are all reduced to their faculty of consume, physically and creditally. Moreover, there is no humor there who could raise the lower classes, only humor who could lower talents -- such films, provided by Morgan Entertainment (c), explain us a lot about their decay and degenerescence.

On the other hand, "Night of the Mind Worms", as well as "Xenorassic Park", or "The Jaws of the Sealurk" are not really clever film, though really entertaining. If we complain for "Bloodshed, sex and silly humour ", then we have to complain of "Dance of the Vampires", famous holfilm from R. Polanskinov, and almost all the films from Mr. Brian De Palmhand...

[Drogue]

And what's wrong with 'bloodshed, sex and silly humour' now?

I say we need more 'Will and Deirdre', '3rd Rock from the Suns', 'Band of Scout Patrols' and 'Chirontrash' (ok, maybe not the last one )

Long live silly humour and mindless fun!!!

[Hercules]

I loved Citizen Tassadar. Fungalbud, fungalbud.

[Kirov]

"Blade Rover" is my best.

[GeneralTacticus]

Drones are not the unskilled and the unsuitable, but they are disgruntled (if the systran translator is right). They are the untaught and the leftout. They werent born simply bad, they hadnt the chance to express themselves and are just left out !

Explain, then, why they're 'lazy trouble-makers, and they all carry weapons'? That's a direct quote from the SMAC manual.

[Hercules]

So our garrison and military units don't carry weapons?.
Is there any proof our workers , talents and specialists don't carry weapons?
I presume you GT carry a weapon, seeing you are a 'general'?

Trouble-makers. If they are lazy trouble makers then I presume the don't make much trouble because doing so requires effort. So they may simply be trouble makers. Admittedly they can cause disruption to production for a short period.


So lets see what we have as a definition:

Someone who carries weapons.
Someone who is a trouble maker, for instance disrupting the production of ideas and debate in a political party think tank.
And presumably the name 'drone' not only comes brings to mind insects in a hive but also the connotation ' drones' on.

I wonder are there other types of 'Drones' around