Democratic Libertarian Party HQ

[Pandemoniak]

Examples ?

[GeneralTacticus]

Evils of the American system:
Control of government by the corporations.
Exploitation of other countries.

Not evils:
Some are richer than others.
People think of themselves before others.

[Pandemoniak]

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
Evils of the American system:
Control of government by the corporations.
Exploitation of other countries.

Evil from other countries :
European corporations exploiting Africa
(oil, diamonds, gold, arms market, etc...). You probably know that when the IMF gives a loan to a third world country, it is generally not in money, medicine, public infrastructure (such as roads, communications, health service and education, but rather roads from the slums to the mine, from the mine to the factory, from the factory to the airport, example from the Democratic Republic of Congo, ex-Zaïre).
Europe exploits mainly Africa, while USA exploit mainly South America (very simplified).

Control of European institutions by corporations
Today, in European countries, most of the intern affairs (especially economically) are dealt by European institutions rather than by national governments. These institution serve the profit of the european prosperity (limiting budget deficits, etc... -- I dunno all the technic terms for that in english, and the UE stuff are quite obscure to me), thus defavorising public service (see the example of energy, that has to be wholy privatised in 2004, while there are many strikes going on in France against partially privatising EDF (public electricity company).

These examples are only European, cause being European, I know Europe better than I know other countries, and in order to save time and be sure of what I say, I remained on european examples.
To sum up, neither American Capitalism, neither America, neither Capitalism have the monopoly of evilness -- what is evil, by the way ?

Not evils:
Some are richer than others.

Said like that, indeed, it doesnt seem "evil" -- supposing we can agree on a common definition of evilness. But if you consider things on another angle : one can eat only because a hundred starve, the riches built their fortune on the poors, etc... this can appear far more evil. The question is not how the situation is presented, its about what you consider being good and being evil. I personnally consider that if less than 1% of mankind have more than 60% of the wealth (or whichever other statistics, Im sure you get the picture), there is something rotten in the Empire of Capitalism. You cannot even say that "if they are richer, thats because they deserved it, they worked for it, etc...", because I wont let anyone say that Bill Gates worked harder than a child in a south american gold mine. They are richer because they were born at the good place and because they were ready to cause and use the misery of thousands other people, just for their own wealth. I consider evil to have 500 chickens when you can only eat one and throw the 499 others at the garbage to preserve the markets.

People think of themselves before others.

Again, it depends of what you consider good and evil, but believe it or not, humankind is a social specy, and you need the others to live as a human being. People would better think more often of what they need. And in my radicalest moments -- that no one on Poly ever experienced, people who willingly ignore the fact that human are social beings, I consider them as not part of human kind, meaning as animals.

[Kirov]

Originally posted by Pandemoniak

Control of European institutions by corporations
Today, in European countries, most of the intern affairs (especially economically) are dealt by European institutions rather than by national governments. These institution serve the profit of the european prosperity (limiting budget deficits, etc... -- I dunno all the technic terms for that in english, and the UE stuff are quite obscure to me), thus defavorising public service (see the example of energy, that has to be wholy privatised in 2004, while there are many strikes going on in France against partially privatising EDF (public electricity company).

Pande, I know it's very off-topic, but I'd like to know: what's your personal opinion about European union? It sounds like you loathed it.

[Pandemoniak]

I am totally pro-european, its just that we/they (?) are only building europe to face the USA, so we/they are making the same mistakes as them. I just hope it wont lead to the same results.

[GeneralTacticus]

I'm referring to the 'American system' in much the same way as one might refer to the 'Soviet system', which was not at all confined to the USSR.

[Pandemoniak]

and so what ? I dont get your point.

[GeneralTacticus]

The 'American system' isn't the only way to run a capitalist society, just as the Soviet one isn't the only way to run a Planned society.

[Pandemoniak]

[quote]
I said : I think it is better than a system who's only built on the worst of human nature (greed, selfish, individualist, ignorance and totalitalitarian system) : modern capitalism.

GT said :
You mean American Corporatism. Big difference.
The 'evils' of capitalism that you like to decry are either features of the American system (which is not universal in the West, though it is in the US and most of the Third World), or else they aren't evils at all.
[quote]

There is indeed many way to run a capitalist society, but the 'evil I like to decry' are features of capitalism itself, not specific to any particuliar application of capitalism. It would ruin the Planet and let a major part of the population in misery, because theres no application of capitalism that can protect the planet and benefits to the whole society.

[GeneralTacticus]

because theres no application of capitalism that can protect the planet

Sure there is. Emission trading and environmental laws, anyone?

benefits to the whole society

On what do you base that claim?

[Pandemoniak]

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
Sure there is. Emission trading and environmental laws, anyone?

So, there are laws controlling economy... that isnt really free markets... All statistics and studies from experts say that there will be a dramatical increase of ecodamage, whichever law you choose to apply.[/quote]

On what do you base that claim?

The riches get richer, the poor get poorer. Clivage between social classes will become enormous, producing an enormous number of disgruntled citizens.

[GeneralTacticus]

So, there are laws controlling economy... that isnt really free markets... All statistics and studies from experts say that there will be a dramatical increase of ecodamage, whichever law you choose to apply.

If that's your idea of capitalism, it has never before existed and never will. The lack of laws governing the economy is not capitalism, it's anarchy.

The riches get richer, the poor get poorer. Clivage between social classes will become enormous, producing an enormous number of disgruntled citizens.

That's funny, I could have sworn people were better off in 2002 than 1850...

[Archaic]

Maniac, I should reply to you either today or tomorrow. Sorry for how long this is taking, but I've had some IRL distractions.

In the meantime, you might have more success looking up "Deadweight loss" than "Social Cost Theory" (Though checking for just "Social Cost" would probably give you some success too, since there isn't an actual "theory" of Social Cost per se.).

[Maniac]

Maniac, I should reply to you either today or tomorrow. Sorry for how long this is taking, but I've had some IRL distractions.

You need not hurry Archaic. I don't have time for these long debates anyway.

[Archaic]

http://www.swcollege.com/econ/mankiw/student/ch20/links.html

That should be enough to show that Poverty isn't increasing.